111. The Death of the 50/50 Relationship

On this week's episode, Kate and Eric have an open conversation about the evolution of relationships, and what's next when it comes to their own evolution.

Topics:
➡️ Why Gender Roles kinda suck
➡️ How a "fair" marriage can be limiting for both of you
➡️ Why playing to your strengths is best for everyone
➡️ Raising the Bar for your relationship

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
So today we're talking about this whole idea around the evolution of marriage. So we're just gonna have an open conversation about this. This piqued my curiosity, I've been reading a lot of books around this, because we've been really focusing on how to take our relationship to the next level, if you will, and how to just continue growing and evolving not only as individuals, but also in relationship. Right. And so it started out with a conversation that you and I had around how marriages have evolved, right. And we kind of separate into these kind of three big ideas of, you know, what a lot of us know, as this idea of, you know, marriage in the 50s, where the man was typically the provider, right? The woman was typically the caretaker. And that's kind of how the roles played out. Right. So the guy went to work and the wife took care of the kids and the man provided and the wife was a caregiver in more ways than one. And within that relationship, there was a lot of expectations, right? Not only on the wife, which a lot people talked about, but also in the sense on the man

Kate MacDougall
almost like unwritten rules. Right, right. Yeah, exactly. woman must and a man must. And or it's more like a man is allowed to and a woman.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I don't want to necessarily want to get into all

Kate MacDougall
that's not even

Eric MacDougall
a hate mail about that, but I get it right. And I'm so glad that we moved out of that. We're gonna call that like first stage, if you will.

Kate MacDougall
A lot of people have and a lot of people haven't I think there are still some relationships that choose consciously to be in that stage to relate that way to really that way. Yeah, that works. It works for them and it's almost like a living a fantasy of like, the woman loves to get dressed nicely. She's the homemaker she gets dressed pretty every time before the husband arrives home, she makes sure her makeup is done, and she's got her best dress on and, and there are so relationships that that is the thing, and that's what works for them.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I would challenge that, not in the way that it was in terms of the power dynamic, because I think the power dynamic has changed where these women who are choosing to stay at home and be homemakers, etc. They understand that that's an empowering choice. So they have the option to get work if they want to. I see what you mean right as opposed to the 5050 it was like if the wife was like I gotta go to work the man was like no you're not

Kate MacDougall
well, he she needed permission from her man. All this stuff right up I don't want to get into like women in the workplace and all that. Oh man, I love the 1950s.

Eric MacDougall
So I love history. So that's kind of how we talked about this idea of it really was patriarchal really was about the man being the power in the dynamic, controlling most of the

Kate MacDougall
things and then sure myself in that time being a revolutionary, right, definitely a feminist.

Eric MacDougall
Right? So, which is really what brought second stage, right, which was the feminist movement, really powerful, really brought this idea of egalitarianism, and really bringing women to fruition into the workplace and allowing them to have the power they so rightly deserve. Right? And so much good came of that. And in a sense, you know, raised a lot of men who turned out to be quote, unquote, nice guys, right? As Dr. Glover would say, this idea of, okay, like, I'm going to step back, I'm going to create space for my wife, she's a powerful woman, I need to please her. And in a sense, we have to create this idea of the fair relationship. Everything needs to be equal.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, right. Yeah. Because the the nice guy wanted to make sure he was doing a good job at making his wife feel as equal as she deserved to be.

Eric MacDougall
Right. And I think there's his eyes. Exactly. And there's certainly a fear for a lot of men of being that kind of patriarchal controlling, like, I tell you what to do, like, men have a genuine fear of being that Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I think that a lot of people in that time grew up with that were very patriarchal. And they were saying, you know, I don't want to be the husband, my dad was to my mother, right, exactly. So I'm going to make sure that I, you know, the pendulum swings to the whole nother side, and I'm going to make sure that, you know, my wife has all the rights that she's allowed to, and I'm going to give her, you know, everything that she she possibly, you know, wants to do with her life, like, I'll, I'll allow her not necessarily give her permission, but I'll give her the space to do that, and, like, very 5050, but she'll also give me the space, you know, because I am still a man and to also deserve that.

Eric MacDougall
And in a lot of ways, you know, men, and again, I'm not saying this is true for all relationships, please ease up on the hate mail, tripping down. But what I'm saying is, a lot of men in those situations within are doing is kind of putting their needs aside, and not focusing on leading the relationship, and instead, essentially, giving the veto to the woman. And this is where, again, we're gonna talk about 5050 marriages. But I also talk a lot about this in terms of relating masculine feminine, where typically neither partner wants that, like, the woman does not want to be with a man who's constantly saying, like, what do you want to do? What do you want? And you know, the wife's like, well, you want to go to their site, whatever you want, honey. Like, that's not attractive for women to be Yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
that was the expression back then happy wife happy life, you know that that wasn't the 1950s. This was the following relationship where it was the 5050 relationship, whatever she says goes, like, 5050. Everything's equal. Yeah, everything's equal happy wife happy life. And that's where that expression came from. That was, you know, the men, like, just please your wife, and she'll please you back. If you do something for her, she'll do something for us. That's

Eric MacDougall
fair. Yeah. Right. And this is now we fall into this idea of what is fair, not only in terms of, yes, in some ways. I hate the word fairness. But let's use it in this case where fairness is important, right? Men should be helping around the house. Dudes, we've talked about this in podcasts before. If you get home from work, and you sit your butt down on TV for hours and expect dinner to come to you, and then go to bed, you need to wake up to today's date age. Yeah, right. Yeah, you need to be more active father, you need to be a provider in that sense, not only in terms of financially, but also time, energy Effort, Right? Again, I know a lot of that's out there who are totally kicking ass. Right? So really important to acknowledge those men. But I just want to say this that, like, if your wife is still has to hound you to take out the garbage, you need to wake the EFF up. Yeah, right. So let's not go down that road unnecessarily talk to those. But what we want to essentially focus on is this idea that everything needs to be fair. And in our marriage, that is create a lot of created a lot of toxicity when we were doing that, right? Because what that leads to is, oftentimes, we do not play to our strengths, right? And Kate will actually dim her light in order for me to be able to be an equal to her, or vice versa. I will dim my light, too. So to make sure that Kate doesn't feel overshadowed in any ways. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
absolutely. And I think that, you know, oftentimes, if I have a need or a want, and I feel like, you know, Eric's been kind of spoiling me lately. I should probably do something for him before asking him for something else. I'll put my needs and wants a side and then I'll try to make it 5050 Get that scoreboard at 5050 So that, then it's fair for me to ask him for something else. But you know, if Eric's been giving me foot massages and making dinners for me, and he's brought the kids to jujitsu every night this week, and he's done, you know, 10,000 other things on my list. And I've, you know, had a busy week at work, maybe I'm more tired, have more appointments, didn't really have time to focus so much on the kids or him. Then I'm like, oh, until I have a week where I can give him that. I'm not gonna ask him for any thing. Yeah, I can't dare ask him for more than I deserve.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. In our relationship, and I'm sure a lot of couples can relate to this. In our relationship with that usually led to was you having sex with me to kind of balance out the scales? Yeah. Right. Cuz that was like a big thing. You're like, Oh, I just have great sex with Eric. And he

Kate MacDougall
says, that was like, 100 points on my scale. So you brought the kids did all these things. But then 10 years later, yeah, five minutes of sex was like, you know, there you go. 5050.

Eric MacDougall
But what we really want to test you here is like, that's actually quite dysfunctional, right? If you think about it, because now the service that you're doing, right, I mean, service in terms of like the service and sex, but like any service you're doing for your partner, does not become about this. Generous, I love you. And I want to do this for you becomes about this needs to be equal. Yes. And therefore I need to do things in order to keep up.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, scoreboard. Yeah. And it just has happened in our relationship. But in other relationships of people that I've spoken to where they withhold things, you know, I would have sex with him, but what the heck has he done to deserve it? Or I would do what he asked me to do, you know, this weekend, he wants us to work in the yard, but like, I've done enough in the house already, like he can work in the yard on his own. That's right. And it's kind of like, that makes me cringe when I hear that. I'm just like, your husband specifically asked you to work in the yard with him. Like, when that's the bid for connection to like, who cares? Who cares? Yeah, squat in the yard with them. Because then you're gonna probably bitch about what the yard looks like, because you weren't there to plan.

Eric MacDougall
And maybe you could just talk about what actually needs to be talked about here. Like, you need to bring up your husband. Specifically, what you need, instead of this idea of, well, it needs to be fair, etc, etc. And that's really we want to talk about because a lot of times when we think about fairness, because we're gonna put a spin on it here, which I think is really important. So a lot of people when they think about fairness, and kind of the death of the 5050 marriage, this is kind of what they're talking about, right? This idea of like, shouldn't be a scoreboard. It shouldn't be, you know, I took the kids one day, so now you need to take the kids, that's just not healthy relationship. Number one, it's worth your transactional, but also it puts so much pressure on your relationship.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And to remember all of those things. So check, check, check, check. Okay, that's for your one. Like, it's four to one. Like,

Eric MacDougall
that's exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting. Exactly. And it takes a lot of generosity out of the relationship, and essentially just becomes a scorekeeper exercise, which let's be real. Nobody wants a relationship like that. Well, maybe if you like safety over desire and connection, maybe you want a relationship like, Yeah, but again, right, we understand the idea, the need for security and the need, but oftentimes, what happens is partners kind of de facto to that when they feel like they want something but they do not feel valuable enough to ask for it. Right? Like it's gonna get refused. That's when we go to fairness, right? Where it's like, well, it's unfair. I've done all this and you just do this, instead of saying, like, Hey, I'm feeling really overwhelmed that I really need your help. And I'm struggling, and really not believing that your partner is gonna say, Wow, I'm sorry, I want to help you and send me upset. Well, I'm struggling to and blah, blah, blah. Take up your own stuff.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think it also like takes away the service your partner is about to do for you. Right? Like, like, Oh, it's a good thing. You're going to work in the yard because like, I've like been so busy, and I've done all of this this week, and like your partner probably feels like in a way like I have to do the yard work tonight. I am exhausted but I have to do the hard work tonight. Because if I don't like she's gonna be pissed at me because she was she did so much. And it's like well do you have to do with this week? Like, is the yard going to implode? Like I don't know like, maybe you guys could just have a nice weekend of connecting like you haven't seen each other all week. Obviously you've been too busy to help at home like whatever like but it's just I think it takes away from the opportunity for connection because you're always looking at like, oh, I have to I have to make sure it's I have to keep up I have to keep up and I have a really busy week I've been traveling all week for work whatever like my wife's been like, you know on the home front doing it all and I've just come home from like a week away but I was working you know, business trip or whatever and like, now I have to come home and like spend all the travel time like double was trying to like, just chill out the whole weekend. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's nice to do. But like, what about your connection? Yeah. And that might

Eric MacDougall
not be something she wants to do. Yeah, right. That's the other thing too. Like, maybe she doesn't need a whole weekend. Maybe she just wants time for herself. And then actually she wants spend time as a family, and will spend time with you. Yeah. Right. And this is really important understand is that, you know, when we think about this idea of what needs to be fair, we often lose sight of our partner. Yeah. Right. And we're not able to see them for who they are. Or

Kate MacDougall
to just ask, like, hey, when I come back from my business trip, like, Is there something you want to do? Like, oh, my God, I would love to go on a date. But instead, you're like, Whoa, going 600 times percent being like the number 1000. I gotta balance, like just trying to be the best husband or the best wife, because you weren't there all week? And it's like, what if she just wants a date? What if she just wants to like, hold your hand for five seconds? Like, what if she just wants to go to bed with you early one night, like, that might be all it is. So you'd have to go like busting your head trying to like figure out like, all these things that you need to do for her to balance out the scales.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And so when a lot of people think about this idea of the 5050, marriage excetera and why it's so how do I say toxic because there are some benefits to utilitarianism, like, I don't want to take anything away from that, it's important that you and your partner are understand you're different. You're different, but equal, it's great. But we want to move to another step when we're talking about 5050. And another dysfunctional part of it, which is, oftentimes what happens is you end up dimming your own light, right? And you rarely play to your strengths. And that's what's so dysfunctional. Because what happens is, you know, exactly, in terms of what you're talking about, is, if I feel like I need to, or I think that I need to keep things fair between us, right, I might actually prevent myself from excelling or doing something. Because now I think it's going to make force you to have to do it too.

Kate MacDougall
Right. And I love that you brought that up, because that's how it impacted our marriage for a long time. And it's still sneaks in once in a while. That's how the 5050 like haunts our marriage. It's, we went from a place where, you know, you're very strong in math, finances, like, you just know, you seem to like have this like, innate understanding of it. Maybe because you've been in the business before and things like that. But like you have this understanding of it. The kitchen, you've also been in that business, like you're very, very efficient in the kitchen, you can make a meal, like a gourmet meal and 15 minutes, I'll make the exact same like, I'll make Kraft Dinner will take me like two hours like, right? I'm just not very efficient. So what are your strengths? No, I'm like, I just had to stand there for like 20 minutes thinking like, what what am I gonna make tonight, and then find the ingredients. And then finally it doesn't work out. And then I put Cajun instead of paprika. And it's just like disaster. That's happened many times. But anyway, so yeah, playing up the strengths was like a big thing in our relationship. So when you when I would see you, doing the finances, cooking most of the meals, also, you know, pulling your weight with the kids driving them to places giving them the baths, reading the books, like, I felt like, oh my gosh, like, I need to do something. So then I started taking on finances started starting things that I Yeah. Yeah. Like, I was like, oh, Eric, I'll make the meals all week. And I'll make all the breakfasts and all of this and all of that and thinking like, I'm gonna take stuff off Eric's plate, it's gonna be wonderful. And just to find out that, like, it wasn't really helping you. It wasn't making a relationship better, even though Yeah, like you had time to put your feet up. Our relationship wasn't getting better. Yeah. And there was still that like, unspoken frustration between us. It was exhausting me to say that. So we would grow it, we would go to bed and it's like nine o'clock. And I'm like, pass right out. Because I've like done math in my head. That does like maximum grade one math spent two hours doing something I could do. intendant Yeah. And so I'd go to bed exhausted, we wouldn't connect, because I'd be like, too tired. I'm like, don't judge me, because I'm angry because it took me so much time and patience to like, deal with the kids and the kitchen and the finances and do things that are totally out of my comfort zone. And so our relationship was actually suffering more now that I was making this 5050 thing. I was like, Well, I had to be fair, everything's equal, like how come How come our marriage is still suffering. But what we realized was, it was suffering because I wasn't putting time into the things that I was good at, which is planning things for the family and planning out and being creative doing things with the kids planning activities, you know, as a couple and, you know, just setting environments in our home that are making really good jokes while you're cooking dinner. Be super funny. And like, there wasn't any of that left because I was exhausting myself doing things that I'm We're not very good at,

Eric MacDougall
right. And that's the idea of playing to our strengths, right? When you understand when you're playing this idea of fair marriage and everything has to be equal, you end up actually trying to figure out the things you're not very good at, that your partner could do. And if you think about it, like a business, right, like, you wouldn't say like, Hey, we need our CFO, like, we need our finance finance guy to figure out how to do sales. No, and because that would be equal. You're like, no, that finance guy is gonna do finances and the sales guy is gonna do sales. Yeah, let's not mix it up. Stay in your lane. Right, exactly. And that's something that really helped us evolve our marriage. I was like, I do most of the cooking. Now, Kate does cooking. You improve on it. We cook together sometimes. Yeah. But like, you excel at it now in a lot of ways. And you've improved, right? Everything's hard before. It's easy. Yeah. But the reality is, is that typically in our home is our lane, which means that, you know, at a certain time of day, if dinners not being prepped, I jump into it. Right, right. I'm not like, Oh, I'm gonna sit around here, my arms crossed, right. But

Kate MacDougall
I think it's kind of like an unwritten rule in our house now that like, Eric makes dinner, but like, sometimes I'll look at the clock. It's like, 445, you're on a call, or you're doing something or maybe you just got your feet up, and you're just your mind's not, I'm gonna go make dinner. And I'm not like little insects, Jama. Like, I'm like, Oh, I'm just kind of not in the kitchen. So I better start making dinner. And I'm not like, hey, read, can I start making dinner? Or Eric? Are you gonna make it? No, I go ahead. And I do it like, and same with the finances like, Eric makes the big financial decisions. He understands the math and the interests and all of the blah, blah, blah, like, so I trust that you make the right decisions for our family. But it doesn't mean that I don't keep track of our spending. I'm not couch, paying off some credit cards, paying off some some things that were you know, always paying off their bills, and the credit cards and all of those things. Like, I still have to keep track of it, I still need to, you know, you know, come into your lane once in a while. But I'm not like leading the fleet in your lane, right? Like, I'm just kind of like, I'll be in it once in a while I go into it once in a while. We'll have discussions about Final times I need

Eric MacDougall
help, right? So I'm gonna say, Hey, we're, I need you to kind of come and look at this with me, I need some bird's eye view. And we need to have a conversation about it. And then we get dinner, right? Like sometimes we'll talk about nutrition and stuff for our family. And I'm like, hey, look, I need you to be involved this conversation. This is not just a me conversation. This isn't us conversation. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
exactly. So when we're saying like, you know, play to each other's strengths, we're not saying like, wash your hands of it. Never ever touch a spatula in the kitchen again, because then you will back the first stage Exactly. Like, no, it doesn't become anybody's job. It's just, what are you naturally good at? And how can you really excel at that in your relationship? Yeah, like, how can you really play up that strength to make your relationship? Incredible, instead of just trying to constantly keep it equal?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, this is really about like conserving your energy, right? Because if you're gonna spend three times as much energy doing something, or I spend three times as much energy, it's like, it's like the school stuff. Like for me trying to figure out school emails, and it's like, I'm losing my mind sometimes try to. And I'm like, You know what, I

Kate MacDougall
just need to take that overtime. When you tell me when I let go on something. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
like I need to step in and do something. Because to me, that takes up way more energy and bandwidth than it does for you. Yeah. So naturally, you will take over, but in some cases, you're like, Eric, this is happening next week, I need you to jump on that and take care of the kids with that. It's like, awesome. I got it sent me the information, or where can I find the information? And I'll take it on, doesn't mean I'm incapable of doing it. What it means is, as a team, it would actually be better for our team to Kate, for Kate to take that on.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. Because it's going to take me five seconds, and it's going to take you Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
exactly. And it will be detrimental for our team for me to take it on. Now. This is warning here. Caution. Listen to this. Do not use this to get out of doing stuff. This is really important. Right? Like Kate said, She's not like, oh, you know, dinner's Eric's responsibility. So

Kate MacDougall
if it's five o'clock comes along, Eric, you haven't started. If I walk up and

Eric MacDougall
I'm like, Hey, dinner's like, not made you didn't start, you know? So my responsibility. It's you that does that, like no, don't play that. No. It's, you know, in that case came probably like, Oh, you're right, Eric, like, sorry, I got away from it. I got busy. And I'm like, okay, like, I want to call you, right. And that's awesome. Let's get let's get her done. I wasn't there. You're right, let's make it happen. And let's figure this out. It's all good. This stuff happens. You know, give each other grace and make it happen. So that's the really important thing is that when you're focused on this idea of 50, Marriage 5050 Marriage, you are not focused on playing to your strengths. You're trying to for everything to be even, and therefore you're no longer an individual. You're just this one big melting pot of we each have to know how to do everything all the time. And that's not great for a team, right? Typically Team, you have different people in team who are playing to their maximum strengths, right? And having an egalitarian marriage can sometimes take away from that.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I think the 5050 marriage falls a lot in treating your husband like he's your child, and I'm saying your wife cheats and treats the husband like they're your child, because typically, that's how marriages work. Like, okay, honey, every Wednesday, your job is to do the garbage. And then don't forget to do the lawn and once a week, and your job is to do this, and this and this, like, your husband has a specific skill set that he does. And like every week, that's all he does. But I'll do the rest, I'll do everything else. But as long as you do these five simple things, like, oh, please just do these five simple things. Like, it might not be 5050. But it's still the same idea of like, I'm treating you like, this is all you can do. And this is all I'll do all of this and like, I'm never gonna step in your lane, and you're never gonna step in mine, and I'm going to get pissed at you. If you don't do the things that I told you to do. And vice versa. Like you're gonna expect that dinner was made while you were out cutting the lawn, because that's usually how it happens. But I don't know. Maybe I'm sick one day. So you're gonna come in and be like the dodo, what am I need to get into? Do? How am I? How do I make dinner? Like I don't know? Like, why? Why have a relationship like that? Like, you're not a mother, he's not your child, like, play up to each other's strengths. Give your husband the benefit of the doubt that he's a grown man. And he can do these things. Yeah, I agree. And you left for a whole week, your kids wouldn't die. Your husband would starve to death. If you don't have kids, he won't, he won't starve himself to death. Like he'll figure it out. But like, I find a lot of wives especially, though, like take on that that mother role with their husband like, okay, so we need to know how to make dinner. Okay, I know I'm gonna be gone tonight with my girlfriends, but like I prepared something a lasagna pan, just throw it in the oven at 350. Like, if your husband doesn't know how to warm up a lasagna, he needs to cook a little more, just give him a couple of days of like, practice in the kitchen with you.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, maybe he needs some time. And I agree. And I wanted to get to my kind of last point, too. But I agree with what you're saying. And I think that, you know, both sides of the street need to step up there, right? Like I, I think for men, as much as it can sometimes feel great to be taken care of. And all these ways, which is great. Now, if it works for both of you, that's your relationship. Right? Right, you do it, right. If you feel like you're both happy, and that system, don't stop doing that system. That's great. Do it. Right. But in the end, you know, if if you is the man to is the partner need to step back and look at your relationship as a whole and say, Is this healthy? Yeah, right. Because I've seen a lot of men that I've worked with, where they're like, my wife doesn't wanna have sex with me. She's not really attracted to me in that way. She doesn't desire me anymore. And it's like, yeah, because you've created this ecosystem where she takes care of you like a child. And you actually kind of play into that, and allow her to treat you like a child. Yeah, like, you're essentially allowing her to be responsible for you, instead of you stepping up and being responsible for yourself, which is attractive, right? And so really have to own this. It's not all on the women, it's on both partners who create this ecosystem. And the reality is, I mean, let's be honest, in a lot of marriages, not only are both partners working full time, right. But then when you get home, it's typically the mother that's taking on a lot of responsibility. And this is still true. This is evidence, you know, they have stats on this where typically, there are two working parents who work full time, the mother is still at home taking the brunt of the load. And so again, that's a whole other conversation where I think men need to step into their power here and lead a bit differently involve. But what you're saying is, is true in terms of sometimes we need to get out of sync, and get out of idea of kind of the mother child relationship where it's like, I tell you everything to do? Well, maybe you need to stop doing that and create some space. And then men, I think you need to kind of step into that and take responsibility for yourself as a leader of your family. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
just come home one night with like, dinner stuff and just be like, Hey, honey, I'm making the dinner tonight. And she might be like, what? Oh, oh, okay. Wow, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, like, not saying do it every night. Like don't do like I did. And start making dinner every night. Because that not gonna make nobody happy. But, you know, once in a while here and there, just kind of slip it in here. I'll make dinner tonight. No big deal. Like, and it's not like honey, go sit down. I'll do this favor for you and make dinner. No, no, no, that's that's a whole nother problem. You're not doing anybody favors it. Just take getting it on tonight. Tomorrow, you're gonna do something else that she didn't tell you to do. You're just going to take it on yourself.

Eric MacDougall
You're just going to look at what needs to be done. And you're gonna take ownership and execute. Yeah, yeah. And the last thing I want to talk about on this idea fit 50 And why it can often impede in our connection is and again, if you kind of zoom out. What often happens is if you have a partner who typically leans towards more ain't right, they feel more of that shame, they feel like they're not good enough, they feel like they never measure up, etc. Maybe they have this baggage that they're carrying from their past, etc, right. And they have some healing to do around that. And really what happens is like, they think their partners up on the totem pole, right, and they're kind of down here. And they'll never be equal to their partner unless they do everything absolutely perfectly. That's when your partner essentially lead by their own shame, right? So that's conversation one of the time. But in those times, what ends up happening in a relationship is that shame ends up leading the relationship ecosystem. And what that looks like, is both partners, you know, then have to make sure that the bar is kept low. Because you never want a partner to do too much, right? Just like you you're talking about earlier, when I'm like, giving you foot massage, I'm doing all this stuff. I have to be aware sometimes of if I give Kate too much, she's gonna fall into shame. She's gonna say, I'm a horrible wife, oh, God, I haven't done anything for Eric, I'm the worst. And you've done a lot of work to not fall into that. We're quite aware of that. We talk about it a lot. I get that. But there was times in our relationship, where that was actually a burden that I carried. Right, let's say I had to carry it not say that I should have carried it. But it was something that I came up with mind. Yeah, where I was like, if I do too much for Kate, I might wake up one day, and she's gonna feel horrible as a person, because she's like, You do all this great stuff for me. I'm not worthy of it. And so that's what happens in this egalitarian marriage. If we're focused in that moment on being fair. That's what I meant by one partner often dims their light. They say, you know, another example that I'll give, but you kind of finish on this, but we say like, Okay, well, I can't do all these great things. I can't serve my partner in this way. I can't give them too much love. Because then that makes them feel like they're not showing up for me. So there's no longer this idea of generosity. It's no longer a servant that I'm giving service that I'm giving them. But instead, when I serve them, it actually amplifies how they are not good enough. Right, right. And so that is where also, again, this is deep. But that's where the galleon egalitarian marriage can sometimes come into play where being equal is not good, is not actually healthy for the growth of your relationship. The other thing, the other example we often use, it's current in our relationship often, is when you you're very social. Want to go out, you'll have to talk to people, you'll have to have all kinds of outings. Yeah, that's a big one. I am not a social.

Kate MacDougall
I like being alone. You're a bit of an introvert. Exactly. I

Eric MacDougall
like being at home. I like reading stuff. I like going on walks on my own. And that's how you re energize Exactly. But so what that creates in our relationship is you prevent yourself from going away from going out from socializing, going on girls trips, etc. because that wouldn't be fair to Eric stays home. Is that jealous?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. But I think that's a little bit about myself putting putting myself in your shoes, like I wouldn't want to be alone at home. But like, we're not the same person, we are not the same person.

Eric MacDougall
Exactly. And in that case, it does not need to be fair, right? What's actually best is you getting clear on what makes you feel most fulfilled, what makes you feel the best. And me getting clear on what makes me feel the best, sharing it with each other, and then helping each other create more of that life. Exactly right. And so I think that's really important to think about is, when you're focused on this 5050 marriage, often you get to a place where your marriage is healthy, I'm gonna be wrong, your marriage is great. But one partner is dimming their light, in order to make sure their other partner can keep up with them. And so we were very cognizant about not raising the bar too high too quickly. Because like that could actually make my partner uncomfortable. So I'm going to stop raising the bar. And I don't know that that's healthy for your relationship long.

Kate MacDougall
No, absolutely. And I think that you need to get to a place where you're like, I'm going to keep loving on my wife, or my husband. And I remember you telling me when we went through that telling me like, Kate, by you acting this way, or reacting this way, every time I do something for you, you're taking away my ability to give you those gifts. You're taking away my you know, the love that I have for you. When I give you a foot massage, or when I you know, plan a date for us or whatever, like whatever gesture you were doing. It's because I want to, and it's because I love you. And when you say Can you just stop doing that? Oh my god, you make me feel like crap about my hair. I'm not fair. Oh my god, I'm so sorry. You had to do that again. Like, you're taking that away from me. And that hurts me because that's how I want to love you. So I think the person if you're the one feeling shame, I think it's important for you to look inwards, and not stop your partner from you know, shining bright and being the romantic partner they are or whatever it is. But just, you know, telling yourself, it's okay. I deserve this. Yeah, that's okay. I am loved and I deserve this love. And that's hard to do. It takes practice, but trust me it's possible. Yeah, yeah. So talking about something big there. Yeah, exactly. Which is for a whole nother Episode yeah,

Eric MacDougall
like I am worthy of love. Therefore I accept that my partner serves me in abundance.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And that it's okay that, like, let's be real here in our relationship, you're like 1000 times more romantic than I am. Like, so I've just had to learn that like, that's Eric. And that's how he shows his love. And I show my love in different ways. And it's not in grand gestures like you do. But it's an other ways.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And isn't a great to have a partner that does that. Yeah, instead of it being a reflection of like, romantic. I think you're great. Great. Exactly.

Kate MacDougall
Thank you. Yeah, I think you're amazing. Yeah, relationships have come far. And I think it's important for you, the listener to step back and see, where am I at in my relationship? Are we still in the 50s? Are we you know, really 5050? Or are we moving towards a place where we're encouraging each other, and, and being individuals in the relationship by laying up our strength and, and encouraging the other to play up with their strengths? And, you know, if you're happy with the 50s, and the 5050, if that is working for you, keep going. That's right, that's totally fine. That's your marriage. But if you're stepping back and saying, I wish I had more, I wished my wife would I don't like this because like, that's you questioning your marriage. And anytime you question anything, that's kind of like a red light going on, like, like, you know, we're looking into this should look into that something's not right, something's like, it's like that engine light, when your engine light goes off in your car. It's not necessarily urgent to look at, but you should probably pay attention, pay attention to it soon before it causes a bigger problem. So that might be the engine light going off in your relationship, if you're starting to be like, Oh, things are unfair nananana, you're like, oop, maybe we're 250 50. Let's talk about our strengths. Let's look at our strengths. If you're the wife, and you're tired of being the homemaker and you're stuck at home, and you're like I want to get on the workforce, like have that conversation, it's important for you to have that conversation. Because if you just allow yourself to live in this relationship with this red light on all the time, this engine light going all the time, like eventually it's going to your motors going to burn out and you're just not going to it's going to become a very complicated problems get rid of.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I agree. And, you know, just one last slide on that. I think we're getting along. But like, Kate and I, and we talked about this on our podcast, right? For us, the marriage is a container for individual growth. And that's what we use our marriage for. And so there's times when, you know, choosing the uncomfortable route, is going to be important. And that's something that we do constantly, right? A lot of people they look at our marriage and like, wow, I must be so awesome all the time. It's like, yes, it is awesome, often, right? And sometimes it's uncomfortable. Yeah, like we're having uncomfortable conversations about growth. We're facing ourselves, we're challenging ourselves. We're having those tough conversations, because we believe that our marriage serves it really this beautiful gift for us to grow as individuals. And that's what we want to encourage all of you to do here. I want you to look at your relationship and say, what is working really well for us, and what needs to be done differently, so you can evolve to third stage marriage, whatever that looks like for you.