119. The Skill of Persuading Your Partner

This week Eric shares how he loves a good cry, Kate share's how she is kicking A**, and we tackle a polarizing topic: Persuading your partner to do what you want them to.

Topics:
➡️What does persuasion mean to us?
➡️What leads us to use this method in relationship
➡️Why it doesn't Lead to Intimacy
➡️What you want to focus on instead

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
Today we're talking about persuading your partner. So I want to open this up. So I've been looking at creating this new program and really serving men at a high level. And when it comes to a lot of the programs that I do, it's about skill building, right? So these are not only like high level stuff that we're talking about, but also it's like, what is the skill that you can use to implement? So before I create programs, I often do a lot of research. And so I go out and I ask other men directly, like, what are the skills you'd like? What are the biggest challenges for you, etc. And the skill that, like, man after man after man, there's a lot of men who said this, you know, in these conversations was, I want to perfect the skill of persuasion. And I was kind of like, what does that mean to you?

Kate MacDougall
Like, it's like a new buzzword.

Eric MacDougall
So anyways, but I would ask, you know, what, sorry, I asked kind of deeper, because typically, if I don't understand, I don't understand something like, can you please, you know, do you mind telling me what you mean by that? Or how does that skill look like an action. And it really came down to this idea of like, I want to understand how I can get my partner to do what I want them to do. And and I was, didn't really know how to receive that. To be honest, little taken aback. Right. Taken aback. Yeah. Because I understand, you know that that comes from a sense of control, right, you want to essentially try to control him to use word manipulate, because that's people don't like that. But what you were essentially trying to do is to convince your partner, or stack the deck in your favor, to try to get what you want from your partner. Right? Like the term for that we talked about as other validated intimacy that you're looking for, you're looking for that affirmation from your partner, maybe it's sex, maybe it's you want to set goals together, maybe doesn't always

Kate MacDougall
have made? Do you see me? Do you hear me? And it doesn't necessarily have to

Eric MacDougall
be like, you're giving me something. But it's more along the lines of like, how do I get you on my page? Like, I have a vision for our relationship? And I want you to have the same vision. And I need to somehow persuade you of that. Mm hmm. Yeah. So I want to talk about that. today. I want to talk about some ideas that I had around it. But I'd love to know your thoughts about persuading.

Kate MacDougall
Well, I'm just kind of I'm a little I'm a little taken aback right now. I'm like, a little taken aback? No. Okay. To me, it's slightly passive aggressive. I can see where people are coming from when they're asking that because we've been there. Yeah, we've been to a point in our relationship where it's like, my way or the highway, like, just, can we just do it my way? Because it's going to work, right? If we do it my way, things are gonna get better. I think especially when it came to motherhood, that was a huge thing. For me. That was a huge gap I needed to get over was like, my way of being a mom wasn't the only way of being a mom. Me. Neither was it the best way of being a mom. But I wanted to persuade you to be the mom, I wanted you to be I didn't I forgot you were a

Eric MacDougall
dad to do the things that you wanted me to do. Yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
same with our relationship. I remember when we were going through some difficult times. I didn't want to talk to you about how I felt. I didn't want to tell you why I wanted these things. I just wanted you to do them. And a lot of times I wanted you to guess that you had to

Eric MacDougall
do like you didn't want to out you don't want to tell me I didn't want

Kate MacDougall
to be like Eric we need to go on more dates, but I would be like passive aggressively. Like we never do things anymore. Like oh my friends are going on all these really nice dates like like Maybe we should do more stuff together. Like it wasn't very, like, desirable. Yeah. And send

Eric MacDougall
me information you send me videos about people on dates. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
Or like, here's 100 date ideas.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I want to say, you know, one of the things that I think is important to share is that none of these men are doing this replace of like, Absolutely not trying to hurt their partner trying to make their part. Like, I think in the end, what's happening is, you know, the, the person I'm talking to the man that I'm talking to, is trying to create something for themselves for the relationship, the resistance,

Kate MacDougall
and that's kind of where I was going with that was like, I'm not, I'm not trying to make you be a different dad, because I don't like you. You're trying to screw up my life. I'm not trying to make you date me, because I hate you. I truly love you. And I think this is going to fix our relationship. So just do it. Yeah. And it makes perfect sense to you. Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. So to me, to me, I remember there was points as well, where where you would be very persuasive. And it's not desirable. Honestly, honestly, that's, that's probably just to sum it all up some of my feeling around it. It's not desirable. Yeah, it's, it's to me when I see that in you, because I mean, I rarely see it anymore. But it, it's not sexy. Fun. Yeah. Not intimate. It doesn't make me want to do those things. It kind of just makes me go.

Eric MacDougall
And that's, I think what you're saying is very important, because, you know, when I talk to a lot of guys, you know, I teach this in the mastermind, I talked about polarity, I talk about the feminine, but what I like to say is like, you're not going to move towards that you're going to move away from that. Yeah, right. And there's a lot of things here, right? Number one, as human beings, we have a natural, it's like inherently in us, we have a natural resistance to tie it to being controlled, right. And so as soon as you sniff that somebody is trying to control you or get you to do something, even if you're not even if you might want to do that thing. As soon as you think somebody is trying to get you to do something. A lot of us not all of us, but a lot of us will naturally resist that. Yeah. Right. And, and so that is the first thing to understand is that all humans, not just you're not just your partner, all humans have a natural resistance to being controlled, because we have a drive for autonomy, because we want to be our own person. Right? So that's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, I love that you said the idea of intimacy, because it removes intimacy. Like, if you are trying to persuade your partner, you are not revealing yourself to them, you were actually trying to get them to do something without revealing yourself to them.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and it's almost like you've got this on spoken set of rules, you know, that's come up with us in therapy, where we both kind of have these on spoken set of rules that we don't really share with each other. And you just have to guess what my rules are. And I have to guess what your rules are. And if you're not following my rules, or I'm not following yours, then we get angry at each other. And that's persuasion. That's me trying to get you to do something, but in the exact way I want you to do it. And then when you do it, but you do it the wrong way. I get frustrated because I'm like, Hello, yeah, then do it the way I wanted you to do it. And it's like, yeah, but did you not see that he did it? You know, and oftentimes I see this with people I'll see this with like, girlfriends where they'll persuade, persuade, persuade until I'll go back to like, the date night idea, you know, like, Oh, finally, finally, he was made reservations for us at a restaurant like after like, I asked him to do it for like six months. Like he finally made reservations for us, like, we finally have a date night out. And then they go out and I'm like, Oh, my God, how is your date night? And they're like, terrible. It was terrible. Like, oh, like, everything that could go wrong was wrong. Like he didn't even dress up nice. Like, I wanted him to buy me like a new dress or something for it. And you didn't even do that, like at the restaurant you made reservations to was the worst like, yeah, and it's like, wait, what? Like, then should get the thing you wanted was to go to a restaurant? Yeah, but they didn't get it the way the exact way they had dreamt about it for all these all these months. They've been waiting for it.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and I think we've talked about before, like, we all have these manuals, running, right? We have beliefs of what relationships should be like, what marriage should be like, what a wife should be like, what a husband like, we know what sex should be like. Yeah, all these things.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And those beliefs come from what we witnessed as a child. What a love relationship we witnessed as a child comes from social media comes from the Disney movies. We used to watch all the love stories we used to watch the the novels we read like society like pukes love to us, they puke this idea of what love is supposed to be. And when you don't have that exact picture, perfect love story, you start thinking, what was wrong with me what's wrong with us? Like, I don't think my husband loves me because it doesn't look like it does in the notebook, or it doesn't look like it does. And in this book I read or this this movie I watched, yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and this is really important. So because I want to kind of shift this episode, as we're kind of moving towards that, you know, the end of it is, the first thing that's really important to remember is that it's totally okay for you to want something in your relationships salutely And your partner not provided for you, um, like, both those realities can exist. And, you know, we talk a lot about the relationship ecosystem, you know, not only in our relationship, but you know, in the mastermind is what I teach men. But this is very common. And this is where the persuasion comes from, right. As human beings, you know, you're kind of the nap, you're the center of your own ecosystem. Well, your partner has an ecosystem as well. And we've done a whole episode on this, your partner essentially is the center of the ecosystem. But when you're in relationship, you share the same ecosystem, right? So we share an ecosystem, but in that ecosystem, I am the center of it. And you are the center of that same ecosystem for yourself. I hope people are following here. Because what happens is, we spend most of our time trying to change the ecosystem to benefit us as individuals. Yes. Right. So this comes out as you're criticizing your partner, you're saying random things, you're telling them how much you love dates, you're adding all these little nuances to try to change everything around you to benefit you.

Kate MacDougall
Right, so that your ecosystem thrives. But in the

Eric MacDougall
in a way that benefits you. Exactly, yeah. And so that's really important. Remember, because now I do I do things, I try to get you to do things to benefit me. And you try to do things that benefit you. Right, in a sense. So you're like, oh, Eric, I wish we went on a more dates, like you're actually say that, but you don't you know, I mean? Like, and this is what couples do. So if you're a man, you're complaining about sex all the time, like, you're not actually thinking about your partner, whether they enjoy sex, what do they want to have a fulfilling sexual relationship, but you're not, you're just talking about, I don't have sex, I need to have sex. So I need to change my ecosystem. So I get more sex,

Kate MacDougall
right? So talking about persuasion and that sex like that's, that's exactly like, that's probably the most prime example. Right? Like, so you'll start, you know, being more romantic, you'll start doing all the things you see in movies like, okay, Google, how to get laid out top 10 ways, you're gonna do those 10 things, and then you're gonna look again, because those 10 things didn't work, and then you're gonna do 20 More things. And then you're gonna wonder why it's not working. You know, all I'm doing all the things that I read on Google, I'm doing all the things I've seen in movies. Why does she still not want to have sex with me?

Eric MacDougall
And so really, really important? Is that what you're saying this, but what you're doing in those situations is you're playing with the environment. Yes. Right. So so because to you, your partner is part of the ecosystem. Yeah. Right. And so you're trying to change your partner, maybe you're trying to change the way you look, maybe you're trying to change the conversations between the two of you.

Kate MacDougall
It's like legit, like you would be a water mammal. And I'm a land mammal, and you're trying to make me be able to live in water. Right? And that's just it's just not going to work. I'm not made that way. Right, exactly. But you can persuade me to maybe want to go swimming.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And what I'm saying is that, and I agree that in the beginning of relationships, you might want to come swimming. But over time, and this is why what happens in long term relationships is it changes and this is why everyone's like, Oh, it used to be great. And now it's not, is because one day, you're gonna wake up and be like, Hey, I'm sorry. Like, I'm not a water mammal. Yeah, like, oh, I can't live here.

Kate MacDougall
I got him all the time. You're gonna have to learn learn to walk on land once in a while.

Eric MacDougall
Exactly. And this kind of is happening. So then I'm like, But now this is where it gets tough. Because then I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna walk on land. But what way? Do you need me to walk on land? So you keep coming to the water? Yeah. And you're like, No,

Kate MacDougall
and then it's got to be 5050. If I walk online five times, you gotta walk in the water five times.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I'm only going to walk on land. If you can guarantee you come back in the water, man. Otherwise, I'm not putting so I'm not going on land whatsoever. I'm just going to hang out in the water and trying to figure out what I need to do to get you to come on the water.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. So like, if we put it in, in in more human terms, because now we're talking about mammals and water and land but so say, say, you know, you've done a couple of things. And those things have led to a blow job. And you're like, Yeah, so what are you gonna continue to do? You're gonna continue doing those couple of things, hoping they're gonna keep getting you that blow job, right? But then eventually the blow job is going to stop and you're gonna be like, But baby, I'm doing those things that got me blow job last time. Why am I not getting blowjobs anymore? Yeah. And I'm going to be like, what's, like, were you only buying me flowers and giving me massages? To get a blowjob? Like, yuck,

Eric MacDougall
yeah. And what happens to and this is Why? Because again, I talk specifically to a lot of men. I don't necessarily know women are like this, but maybe they are. But your partner is not a computer program. No, no. Input flowers receive blowjob. Yeah. Like, that's not how it works. That's

Kate MacDougall
called Managing your relationship that's managing your sex life as you're managing your sex life. It's not the kind of

Eric MacDougall
one this is what I wanted to come back full circle to is that what that creates is a lack of intimacy. Because if you are trying to persuade your partner, that two things happen. Number one, they will resist it. Number two, if they do end up coming along, you actually won't believe that it's genuine. Because you're like, Well, you only did this because I persuaded you.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And that's not a good feeling. And that's happened to us before where I'm like, where you're like, Well, do you want me to do that? And it's like, yeah, I want you to do that. But like, I want you to do it because you want to do it. I don't want you to like, you know, like, like coming to the kids school place like babe coach's kid school place like Eric, like, sorry, future kids who are listening to this like he could like, honestly not go to any of the plays and feeling episode. Yeah. It's all about her. But no, honestly, though, like, oh my god, like, Okay, raise your hand if you love going to kids school play, like probably five people didn't? Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
Oh, man, do I ever want to jump in and defend myself? Right. But so but let's say, you know, so this is, this is a very important thing that we're talking because I want to go back to this topic of persuasion here.

Kate MacDougall
Right? So so I could come and say, you know, like, Eric, you know, like your, if you don't come to the kids play, it's gonna hurt them. And I'm proceeding you by making you feel guilty. And I'm seeing any things and almost bribing you get to a

Eric MacDougall
point where you're like, You're a bad dad. Yeah. Kids were so sad. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
yeah. Yeah. And then And then, okay, fine. I'll come. But, okay, so now you come in, we're both sitting and watching the playing the whole time, I'm going to be looking at you and thinking, he doesn't want to be here. He's not here because he wants to be here. He's here because I made him come here. And we have an example in our relationship where that happened, where we went to somebody's wedding. And I'm sure we have plenty of examples, persuaded you Yeah, this is like the like, the one that like, tops them all. I persuaded you into coming and I was making you feel so guilty about not going to that wedding. And you were not at a very healthy place in your life, we were not at a healthy place in our relationship. And you told me, I do not want to go to this wedding. I don't want to go to this wedding to make a fool out of a relationship. We're not at a healthy place, we should not be together. We need to take some time this weekend, because we're just going to be at each other's throats. And so I persuaded you like I did everything I can remember to get you to that wedding. And what happened at the wedding? Like, major blow up, we didn't get along, didn't even look at each other in each other's eyes all night. And it was it really marked our relationship. Yeah, and all of that, because I didn't want to be alone at a wedding. And I didn't want to look like things were going shitty between Eric and I. But the truth was, they weren't going shitty. And things weren't going well. And, you know, that's okay. You know, we, we weren't at a place where we should have been sharing a weekend together. But I forced you into coming and it blew up. And that's what happens a lot of times in relationships, we only think about ourselves, our own ecosystems. How is this going to benefit me? And we're not looking at our spouses point of view, we're not looking at the other person and thinking, how is this going to impact them? You know, like, if I keep forcing my wife, if I keep forcing my husband to have sex with me? Like, is this the kind of sex I want to be having forced sex? Is this the kind of sex that's actually enjoyable in our relationship? Or do I want my wife to come to get to a place or my husband to get to a place where they actually desire me where they actually want to have sex with me? Where they actually want to spend time with me?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And then and I love that you said that whole idea of kind of the school play, because then what happens is, when your partner does want to have sex with you, again, right, you're questioning and you're like, Is this legit? Like, are you are you just doing this stabbing, complaining, and then that creates a situation where there is no intimacy, right? And so what I really wanted all of you to think about as you're listening to this is that this idea of persuading your partner, like it might work in the beginning, but over time, it's actually quite dysfunctional, and it actually takes away connection. And so in our world relationship, you know, what we do is we were pretty open about what we want. And we accept that our partner is not always going to be willing to give it to us. Yeah. And we've also accepted that, you know, there might be things that Kate, when she grew up she wanted in a marriage or when I grew up as Eric, I wanted a marriage and that our partner is unwilling to provide that for us. And therefore there is a grieving to that. Yeah, you know what I mean? And we have decided that, okay, well, not having this thing in my life that I wanted, or I dreamt of wanting growing up, is not like a maker break for me. Now, some of us do have maker breaks, right? I think if, if we were in a situation, I've talked about how sexual intimacy is very important to me, if we were in a situation where you're like, I'm never having sex with you again. I I'd be like, Okay, well, what's probably best is that you find a partner who doesn't wanna have sex with sex. And then I found a partner who wants to have sex. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
we're I let you, you know, have a sexual relationship with someone else. And we have a whatever, yeah, like gym together? Like,

Eric MacDougall
how can you work it out? And that's the thing is, some of us we have and we have to be honest with ourselves about this is like, is this really something that is a make or break? Or is this something that you're willing to say, you know, what, I can see that I'm gonna grieve that this, I can't have that. You know, I mean, if you're, you know, if every time you go flying you you're scared of flying, and you throw up all the airplane, well, our vacations are gonna be driving from now on, or I'm gonna be flying on my own. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And coming back to sex, because I think that's a big one. And that's one that we we hear often. And we faced or face websites, right? Where, where it's like, I don't want to have sex, I don't want to have sex. I don't want to have sex. So at one point, you have to be like, okay, my spouse doesn't want to have sex. I'll stop pushing. Well, oftentimes, as soon as you stop pushing, what you can't have you start desiring. Yeah, that was desire, once that pressure, yeah, what's that pressure is off your relationship. Once that pressure is off your sex life, once that pressure is off your dating life, or whatever it is that you're trying to persuade your partner to do so much. Once you let it go, and you focus on yourself, your person instead of your spouse and how they can make your life better. Once you start focusing on yourself, well, the sex, the dates that everything you're trying to persuade to get there are going to come it's gonna start happening, because that pressure is off. And that's what people are like, Well, no, if I stopped pushing, and I stopped, it seems so counterintuitive, right? Like, they're, they're gonna just forget about it. Yeah, no, no, they're not gonna forget about it, all of a sudden, they're gonna be like, wait a minute, what about that sexist he had, that he's been pushing for, like, years, and that I haven't been giving him like, all of a sudden, I kind of want to have sex with them. Like,

Eric MacDougall
and I see this, you know, cuz I, we are getting kind of long. So I kind of want to stop. But I see this in the mastermind all the time, right? We kind of it is it is counterintuitive to say, hey, step back. And that doesn't mean like to step back and be alone and ignore your partner. But stop trying to convince your partner of anything, like literally anything. And be you be lighthouse, be the person you want to be. What you're gonna realize is, if it aligns with them, they will follow that. Because, you know, the feminine will move towards love. That's what they want. They want love, they want excitement. They want life energy, they want security. And if they believe that you are genuine, right, and that you are still and you're confident about what you are creating a relationship that aligns with them. They'll follow it. It's so much sexier. Yes. And so this is and this is why like, you know, again, like the guys in the mastermind. It's seeing these results in the game and believe it, right, where it's like, Ah, I stopped trying to miss my wife anything. And I'm getting these like playful, flirtatious texts. I'm getting pictures I'm getting, like, This is crazy. I didn't think he could exist. Yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
sometimes it happens within days or weeks. Like it happens so quickly. And they're in disbelief, but it's happening because they let it go. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And it's, again, like I think we're we're simplifying it, I don't want you to get the idea. Just ignore your wife. And also, she'll start sending you all much pictures. There's a little bit more to it. Yeah. But the idea here is to you know, we talked about the analogy, and I think I want to end up with this, which is, you know, we talked about the difference between being a lighthouse or talking about and when I hear this idea of persuasion and was told to me, you know, it's like, oh, how do I persuade how to persuade and I get it like this idea of sales persuasion. How do you convince somebody to, you know, buy shut off you like, but the idea here is like, stopping a tugboat in your relationship, structure, stop trying to get your partner to do what you want them to do. Instead, the lighthouse, focus on you model healthy behavior. Think about the partner you want to be. Think about the person, the human being, you want to be thinking about the Healthy Habits, you're on display. How do you want to talk? How do you want to ask for your needs? How do you want to communicate? How do you want to love your partner? That's Lighthouse behavior. Right? Instead of saying, hey, I need you to come over here so we can create a healthy relationship. Just be bright, be love, practice it. Be healthy yourself. Yes. And then your partner will come along. A big part of the problem. As the fear takes over, it's like, what if I do all this, spend all this energy and spend all this time and nothing happens. And especially as men, we fear wasting that time and energy. And so what do we do? We wait for the perfect answer. Yeah. And this is where this idea of like, if you could teach me the skill to convince my wife to do what I think is best, I could have a great marriage. And I'm sorry, guys, that will never have that is not a great marriage. No, right? That is a marriage where you're constantly questioning whether the connection is real and authentic. That is a question where probably your partner is unwilling to open up to you, where they don't feel emotionally connected to you. And they don't feel secure, that your love is genuine, that you actually love and cherish them. Instead of just see them as a tool to try to give you what you want or create the life you want. Yeah. And so I really want all of you to think about this, stop trying to persuade. Instead, focus on the person you want to be. Think about building trust, think about practicing love. And in some cases, you might not get what you want. But the reality is, you're going to feel way better about yourself and your relationship.