128. Why Do You Keep Having the Same Fight Over and Over Again

On this week's podcast, Eric and Kate share about a topic near and dear to their heart: Conflict. We explain the disconnection cycle and why it's so important to understand.

Topics:
➡️ How does your family of origin impact your conflict today?
➡️ What starts the cycle of disconnection, and how to manage it?
➡️ How you and your spouse can work TOGETHER to overcome conflict.

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Eric MacDougall
So today, we're talking about avoiding, I mean, specifically, I want to talk about something called disconnection cycles. And then you're like, Eric, can we say it so people actually understand what we're talking about?

Kate MacDougall
Eric loves using these big scientific words. And sometimes in our argument, just words, you use these huge words, like, I don't even know what you're saying, like speak English or French.

Eric MacDougall
So you love the title, which I actually think is great, which is why you keep having the same fight over and over again, over and over. And this is what happens in relationships is for a lot of us, especially in long term relationships. We just keep having the same conflict over and over and over again. Yeah, right. You and I have been having the same version of the same conflict for 20 years. And I look forward to having it for another 50 years.

Kate MacDougall
I don't look forward to having it but I know what's going to happen. It's just inevitable. And there are some things in your relationship you just have to accept that are going to be there and that you're going to have to agree to disagree on. And a lot of that comes from our family of origin. A lot of that comes from our childhood beliefs and our baggage we carry into the relationships. And yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and the meaning we bring to relationships and the meaning we bring to our partners actions and so, so we really want it to help you uncover some of your own disconnection cycle or kind of reason why you're having the same style of conflict over and over again, and how it's something you and your partner create together. Right. And in a lot of ways, I don't to go too deep into this, but in a lot of ways, you know, we often find a partner Hmm, who recreates a lot of the familiarities that we grew up with, right. And so, you know, for lack of a better term, I don't want to oversimplify it here, because there's a lot of, you know, complex studies around this. But if you think about it, you know, if you had a father who was really unavailable to you, and you could not connect with and didn't feel like you could get their attention, you will seek out men who typically do the same thing who are unavailable to you who will not give you attention. And when you find a man who is willing to give you attention, and is always giving you attention, that's actually very uncomfortable for you, because it's not familiar, most

Kate MacDougall
likely, you're gonna think that's weird, reject him not married that guy, but marry the guy who looks who seems not looks like your dad is more

Eric MacDougall
unavailable to you, or maybe looks exactly like your dad. That's a whole other thing. Right. And my son's national, right, and so in the same way that you know, if if you had a very critical mother who was constantly criticizing you, you're most likely going to connect yourself to a woman who is more critical of you and more demanding, in order to kind of recreate that familiarity in that relationship, right and overcome it over time,

Kate MacDougall
it's very comfortable for you, you seek comfort in it, you're like, I know this, it's comfortable. It's what I know, if a woman was raising me up and saying how great I was all the time, I would probably feel weird about that. And it would be very uncomfortable. So I'm gonna stay away from that and go to what I know.

Eric MacDougall
That's right, something that's familiar. And so these familiarities. And because you find a partner who essentially recreates a lot of what you grew up with, as a kid, you also create very similar disconnection cycles, right? And so you not only bring that family of origin that baggage to your disconnection cycle, but then your partner's response continues to reinforce that. Exactly. And this is where we want to really open this up, we can talk about our discussion cycle, but I really wanted to open it up to share this conversation about, okay, what's actually happening in these moments? And how can you work to self Yeah, find your discussion cycles and work together, to manage them, and not make them as catastrophic as maybe they have been?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and I want to be super transparent here and say that this is something that's can be very difficult to do on your own. It's good to have awareness around it, it's good to discover these things. But sometimes, as you and I have experience, we needed help from a professional to help us do this, and to raise awareness around this and to help us get out of it. So it's good to raise awareness around it. But if this is something that keeps happening, it might be important to seek outside, help a coach, a therapist, psychologist, whatever works for you, but getting help to get out of these, because they can be very unhealthy. And they will keep happening until they're addressed.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and the help you're getting don't don't ask your parents for help, because they will, they are essentially a big triggering event for you.

Kate MacDougall
They are the reason those are problems.

Eric MacDougall
Right? So do not go and share that with them. Because they themselves will be triggered by that. So the first thing to focus on here is, what can I call the triggering event, right? And this is, can use whatever language you want, right? This is the event that activates you and observation you make. But really what's happening is something happens, you observe something. And through that observation, the story you make up about it is that your attachment is now kind of broken, right? So if you think about, we're always moving to try to create secure attachment, right? And so we're always trying to be more secure in our relationship create more security. And so when we see something happen, it's because we either feel insecure, like ooh, this person is not going to love me, this person is moving away from me, this person isn't available to me, etc. Or that, you know, some sort of commitment or partnership has been broken. Right, right. And so that this could look like anything, this could look like your partner turning away from you, this could look like your partner yelling at you, this could look like absolutely anything for you. But what I want everybody to think about is what typically happens in your relationship that makes kind of your mind stand up and say, well, red flag, something's wrong in our marriage

Kate MacDougall
here. Yeah. And you'll feel that danger alert, right? Your body's very good at doing it. It's the same response that you would have, honestly, it's the same response you would have if a lion showed up in your backyard, your body is doing the same thing. And you're going, Whoa, something's wrong here. I all of a sudden don't feel safe anymore. That's right. And and like Eric said, it could be something very small, like in our relationship. For example, when Eric starts talking to me for a long time, and especially like in a monotone, yeah, tone of voice laning things in a very monotone scientific, coming out with big words. I'm like, shut down, shut down, shut down. My systems are on high alert. And I'm like, You're in danger here. But I'm not in danger. But my body goes into that same boat. And there's

Eric MacDougall
a reason for that, which we're going to kind of unpack here on this conversation. And so what I want you to think about is what typically happens, what's the triggering or activating event for you, when you feel like oh, something's wrong, like something's wrong your marriage, this could be when you go to kiss your partner and they turn away. This could be when you send a text and your partner doesn't respond. And typically, the more secure your relationship is, the less these trigger events will affect you, right? Because it's very easy to then kind of shift your mind away from that. So like when I text Kate, and she doesn't text me back, you know, now in our relationship, it doesn't worry me. Yes, like, whatever, it's fine, I'll talk to me at home. But when we were like, really not going through a good time, when I texted you, I would wait by my phone and look and wait. And if it was more than like, three minutes, I would start losing my mind. Right. And so as you can see, that kind of brings up my sense of abandonment when I feel insecure, and then my step is to maximize, right? So my step is to chase to get loud to get big, when I feel threatened

Kate MacDougall
to be noticed. So you don't feel so you're not abandoned, right? That's right.

Eric MacDougall
And when I grew up, right, a lot of ways that my mom would eventually give into me a smile. I mean, I love my mom, we have a great relationship now. But my dad wasn't around when I was young. And so the way for me to get what I wanted and get my mom's attention was to get as loud and as obnoxious and as angry as possible. And so she would ignore me if I was just being a good boy. And I was saying like what she wanted. But over time, I realized, like, Ooh, she would actually pay attention to me and ignore all my brothers and sisters, if I became a massive problem, right. And so that becomes recreated then in our own relationship now, where when I feel abandoned by you, I get louder.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. And so the next step after you've noticed this after you've noticed, okay, what red flags is now to notice, typically, when this happens, how do you respond? Yeah, what do you what do you do? What do you say? What do you do? Maybe what do you don't say? What do you don't say exactly. So for me, when Eric starts like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I Red Alert, Red Alert, I shut down. I Stonewall, I go into my cocoon, and I just start nodding and smiling and like, smile and nod, this will stop this will pass. If I just let your good girl yeah. And don't say anything. Eventually, he'll get it off his mind and heart and this will stop and this will eventually end. And you know, that comes from, you know, being told, like, you need to listen to your elders, you need to you know, I'm the parent and I you need to listen to me. And that I came into the relationship with Me. When somebody gets on their soapbox, I must sit there and listen to them. You don't interrupt them. Don't listen to me, it's that's a sign of being polite. It's a sign of being respectful. It's a sign of being a good girl. And so the child in me sits there and just takes it. Yeah, and

Eric MacDougall
really important here because I want to take it one step deeper. Really understanding that in the context that you were raised, doing that up to thank ya kept you safe, got you the love you want it got you your parents acceptance, right. And so there is people that grow up and in their family of origin, like they had to achieve everything really perfectly. In order to receive the love they want it. So, you know, maybe maybe you had a brother and sister who struggled and were kind of a troubled child, and your parents was always telling you like, I'm so glad that like you're not a problem, keep not being a problem, like, just go deal with yourself and be amazing. And you were ignored all the time. But as soon as you were a problem or caused a fuss, your parents would yell and scream at you and kind of belittle you. And so now you create this idea in your head like, oh, well, the way not to be belittled in the way not to, you know, have this withholding of love. And this anger from my parents is for me just to do everything perfectly. And therefore you bring that into life. Yeah, bring that into your relationships. actly.

Kate MacDougall
So that person, somebody who would go through that would probably sit there and say like, Okay, I must do everything perfectly. And unless it's perfect. Don't do it at all. And

Eric MacDougall
if my partner is not happy, that means I need to do something completely different and perfect in order for them not to be happy. Exactly. Right. And that begins your cycle.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. So once you've figured out, okay, red flags, red flags are up. There's something that's coming to break that secure attachment in my relationship. You're noticing, okay, this is how I'm responding. This is how I respond. And you can do this. While you're in the argument. You can do this after your an argument, you can do this, you know, think about the last argument and this is what happened.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I would suggest in the beginning don't do it in the ark. No. That's like a big Yeah, yeah. Typically, you're gonna replay an argument. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
exactly. Just replay an argument. So next time you and your spouse have an argument, especially if it's the one that keeps coming up as the same subject, just start becoming aware of like, what happened, what happened after the argument, eventually, you can do it while you're in the argument. Okay, this is happening. This is happening. You're analyzing in your head like this is happening, this is happening, but that can be difficult. So definitely start outside the argument. Your next step then is to then see how does my partner react to my reaction? Yep. So I know that in our relationship, when I shut down as you get bigger, right? Because my shutting down looks like abandonment to you. And you're getting bigger, looks like dictation to me. So we trigger each other responses.

Eric MacDougall
So and this is really important, you're saying that we trigger each other because this is why the cycle continues for people, because you are triggering each other. Right? So in our case, what Caitlin are talking about is, we both add to the cycle. So without Kate's abandonment, I don't chase but without my Chase, Kate doesn't abandon me. Exactly. And so it's like, the cycle happens because of both of us. Yeah. And that's a very classic pursuer distance or dynamic, right? And so, exactly what you're saying is, you know, when if I see some sense of abandonment or something happens, I get angry, which then leads you to say, okay, Eric's angry, I just need to, like, listen to him here and start shutting down, and he'll kind of work through his stuff, and kind of do whatever. And then eventually, he'll go away. Yeah, so I'll just be the good girl here. Right? And then by by you starting to shut down, I can see it energetically in you, which then makes me get like, it triggers me even more.

Kate MacDougall
Because now you're like, Oh, now she's definitely abandoning me now. She's definitely abandoning me. And it took me time to realize that that abandonment that you feel isn't necessarily me physically leaving the premises, that abandonment is just me not participating in a conversation. It's me looking away from you. It's me not speaking. So that's what abandonment looks like to you now. Yeah, that's right. So because of this reaction, like Eric says, now we're in a cycle. So cycle like it's a circle, right, so we're just going around and around in a circle. So the more pushes, the more I retreat, the more I retreat, the more Eric pushes, so then he pushes more, I retreat more, he pushes more, I recover in it. And now we're in it and it can get at this point, this is where it can escalate and get anger angry, it can get violent like, where we start taking out the big guns, the big words, where we're like, name calling and pointing fingers. And this is where the argument can get extremely unhealthy. And that's why it's very important for you to be aware of the cycle. Because before you get to this point, you want to be able to walk away, you want to be able to stop and say, my red flags went up. Now I've retreated. Eric, I need to walk away. Yep. And then let's come back to this in 15 minutes, in a day, whatever, whatever you need. But let's come back to this.

Eric MacDougall
And this is the hardest part, I think, because a lot of times what happens is you in those moments, you need your partner to stop, right? There's very much this idea, like if you could just understand that I could. And that's what's happening on both sides. And one of the most challenging things, maybe the most courageous things do that we do in our conflict is we do What does not come naturally to us. Right. And so like you're saying, you know, sometimes you you typically like abandoned, abandoned, abandoned, like, that's what that was your MO for a while. And now especially much more recently, but you've been started doing it for over a year, where you'll actually step in, right? And you'll say, Hey, Eric, I really appreciate that you keep but I don't need examples anymore. Right? I got the message. I'm sorry, if you don't feel understood, but in this moment, you just need to trust that I get you. And I don't really know what you want for me. But I am starting to pull away. Yeah. So I love you. Here's me stepping in. I'm not sure there's anything I can do for you right now. What is it you need? And then I might be like, I just need you to listen to me. And then you're like, Okay, that's not going to work for me right now. Yeah. Right. And so I love you, and I'm going to step away. And that is so scary. Because in those moments, you're you might think, especially the beginning, oh, this is gonna cause her to get louder.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And also like, now, my physical distancing is actually abandonment. I'm actually undermining Eric. Right. So I'm thinking this, like, if I leave now, he's actually going to feel abandoned. But if I leave with intent to come back and explain to Eric, the reason I'm leaving is because at this point, I can no longer hear you, I can no longer participate in this conversation. Eric might get angry, Eric might pout, he might be like, Ah, whatever. But in the end, it is much more, it's much healthier for our relationship, to cut it at that point. And say, this is not going in a healthy direction. We need to stop this before it gets to a screaming yelling match, where we're going to say things that we're most definitely going to regret that we most definitely don't mean. But we're going to say it because right now we're about to move into our lizard brains, which is our, you know, animal brain, which is there's no logic, you're not thinking emotions. You're not thinking of the other person. You're just thinking, attack, survival fight or flight. Yeah, that's all you're thinking. So the other person is no longer a person. They're like another lion that you're about to fight. And so that's where you know, the hurt, and the long lasting hurt can happen. So that's, again, why it's so important to get to know the cycle to one, recognize where the red flags are, to recognize how you respond to that. Three, recognize how your spouse responds to your response.

Eric MacDougall
And I would say even deeper than that, right? Like, it's not only what you're seeing your spouse respond to, but actually really important. Have a conversation with your spouse and seek to understand what's going on for them. Yeah, because that was a big thing, right? I can understand it from my lens and be like, Oh, I guess when I yell, okay, shuts down. But it was actually much more powerful for me to understand and hear you say, Hey, this is what happens when you talk to me, when I was young, this used to happen, this was my trigger this is and really start to explain it. And to be like, ooh, like, my behavior is not only about what's happening in the moment, it actually brings up and floods you with all kinds of memories, right, that maybe in the moment you're not even aware of. It's just happening because you're on autopilot. And so, really seeking to understand, you know, when I do this, what is it that you start thinking about? Where does that bring you right in your head and your heart? And then you respond by doing X y&z

Kate MacDougall
Right, so? So exactly, there's like a sentence structure we used to use when you dictate me, then I retreat,

Eric MacDougall
which leads me to get louder. And that's our cycle begins.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. Right, exactly. So I think it's important to though to talk about that break that breath, when you're walking away from an argument because it's about to escalate. We've noticed things. We're taking a breath, but during that breath, we're not just breathing and going on Netflix and whatever. Scrolling are ready for our next argument? Yeah, you're thinking about specific action specific things. What happened there? How did I get triggered? How did this come and impact me? Where's this coming from?

Eric MacDougall
And within right within this thing,

Kate MacDougall
I'm not thinking about what Eric did. I'm not thinking about the ifso activated right now. Why am I so activated? Right now what? What did Eric do? What did Eric say, that got me to this point where I'm having trouble breathing my red flags or up I'm about to attack like, I'm a lioness, like, what is happening for me right now. And really thinking of that the words and the actions that Eric said that have impacted me. And by being aware of this, I can calm myself down, come back and say, Listen, Eric, when you did this, it triggered me in this way. The story in my head was that XYZ, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that I responded by, you know, pulling away and not talking. I'm ready to engage now. Can we go back and you know, calmly talk about what it was that you were trying to say, here's what I understood, from what you were trying to say, am I right? And then starting the conversation over from that place. But now I'm calm down, I have awareness. And I'm feeling better and feeling ready to have this conversation. Back in my human brain where I can feel Eric's emotions, he can feel mine. And we're on the same page, trying to fight the enemy, which is the conflict. But we're a team together fighting that one conflict.

Eric MacDougall
That's right. Yeah. It's you and your partner working together to manage and overcome your own disconnection cycle. And that's important to do together. All right, everyone.