The Best Thing You can Do to Build Trust in your Marriage

In this episode, Eric and Kate MacDougall explore the transformative power of saying "no" in relationships to build trust and establish boundaries.

Topics:
➡️ Importance of saying "no" for trust and integrity.
➡️ Risks of always saying "yes" in relationships.
➡️ Strategies for clear and compassionate boundary communication.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
Today, a lot of this episode is going to be shaped around building trust, and we're going to hit on a topic that's very, very specific, and that topic is saying no to your partner.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah and I know a few people are like, if I say no to them, how is that going to build trust? That makes no sense,

Eric MacDougall
yeah. Or other people are like, I'm an ace at that. I say no to my partner, I love Yeah. I'm building trust all the time. =So we're going to kind of deconstruct it a bit, explain exactly what we mean by it, how saying no in our relationship has completely revolutionized it, at least on my end, you know that I've been thinking about it that, but really also understanding that kind of being a yes man, or, you know very much, this idea of like being a nice guy, a people pleaser, and always saying yes to everybody, how that can actually erode trust and be very dangerous for secure connection in a relationship. Yeah. So if you think about it, you know, I totally get where it comes from. And everyone's probably experiencing this right now, of these moments where, you know, our partner says they want something, and even though we feel like, Oh, I can't really do that. I don't really want to do it, we just do it anyways. And this is, like, how it happens in the beginning. Is a relationship. In the beginning of relationships, we like, love doing this, right? So like, give you the example we always talk about. But like, when Kate and I first met, if I wanted to go up for pizza and Kate was like, I want some sushi, I'll be like, alright, yeah, let's go for sushi. Even though maybe I didn't want to go to sushi in the beginning, I would say, Yeah, let's go to sushi, right? And so I would essentially, we call, like, folding. I would fold and say yes. Now two things happen long term in a marriage, either that behavior continues with one partner and they get to a place where they're like, I've said yes to these things all the time. Now I actually cannot say no, because it's going to be such a catastrophic shift in our relationship that now I'm actually just stuck of continuing to say yes, yeah, right, yeah. And so that's that's kind of some people end up in that place. There's the other side, which is people fold, fold, fold, fold, till they get to a point where now they're no longer willing to do it, because now they're thinking they're getting the shit end of the stick all the time. And that is when you get to a place in the relationship where you know one partner now says, I'm out. It's over. I'm no longer willing to do this, doing things for everyone, right? And their behavior completely changes, right? Which is, you know, maybe now you have a husband who's never coming home, and he's always going out to work parties all the time, and he's avoiding taking responsibility for the family and the relationship, and he's just doing whatever he wants, right? Hashtag, midlife crisis, right? And so really understanding that in the beginning relationships, this is perfectly normal, but long term, if we continue down this route, we often end up at one of these two places, right?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and I find it when you find finally figure out this ability of saying no to your spouse, it is a great gift to your relationship. I know, for us, you know, there's nothing that hurts more than seeing your spouse doing things that are like, out of alignment for them, right? So, yeah, there's things like you saying no to things you ask, but it's not even it can be actually, like, not even that direct. It can be like saying no to other people. So say, you know, my my friend asks me to do something, and it's something that I would never say yes to, usually. And they say, you know. And then I go and tell Eric, oh, you know, I said yes to going rock climbing with my my friend. And Eric's like, rock climbing, like, you're afraid of heights. This isn't really something you do. Like, why are you doing this? Like, and it's like, no, I don't know. I just couldn't say no. So I'm just gonna go. Like, I'm gonna hate it the whole time. It's gonna be terrible. Like, I don't really want to go, but I said yes, so I'm going to go anyway. Well, what happens is, the no isn't directly to Eric. No, yeah, the yes isn't directly to Eric. This has nothing to do with Eric, but the fact that I can't stand on my own two feet, that I can't, you know, do things that are in line with me, and that I'm not showing myself to be strong enough to be like, Nah, you know what, I'm not gonna go rock climbing. But why don't I meet you guys at the restaurant before and then you guys can go off and do something on, like go to rock climbing, but I'm just gonna meet you at the restaurant. What happens there is Eric sees me as a person who doesn't hold to my values, who doesn't, you know, trust in myself or in my ability to say no. And what happens there? It kind of bleeds into the relationship. Well, if she's doing that with her friends, what is she not saying to me? What is she saying to her friends about the things that we're doing together, like, oh, we went to the movies the other night, and it was terrible. I can't believe I went to see another superhero movie, like, oh. And so I 100% agree,

Eric MacDougall
and I was gonna jump in. I was so like, chomping at the bit to kind of talk about this, because I love the example you brought. And very specifically, what's important here to kind of differentiate from any other time maybe you go rock climbing, is go rock climbing, is what you said after, which is, like, I don't want to go, but if I felt me to say yes, and blah blah blah, right? If you'd have been like, I don't really want to go, but lately I've really been challenging myself to do new things, and blah blah blah, right? And then I'm like, Okay, that would make sense, right? Cool. And so that, like, now it aligns, but exactly what you're saying, which is in that moment when you're saying, you know, I had this friend who wanted me to go, and I really don't want to go, and it's not something I'm gonna enjoy. And I said, Yes, anyway, now

Kate MacDougall
I'm gonna force myself to go to this situation where I'm gonna be absolutely uncomfortable, totally, yeah, not wanting

Eric MacDougall
and so, but what happens to the person who's witnessing that is that becomes like a snapshot, and then that guy gets categorized in the brain. And over time, if that happens a lot, you start to create this kind of mind map of your partner, which is, oh, like my partner will just do and say whatever, whenever she feels pressured or uncomfortable. And so now you start taking that brush, and you're painting it on your own relationship, exactly like you're saying, right? And I'll give you a real time example, because, because I think this is important, to jump into this so and again, not to be too forward. But you know, yesterday we were in bed together, and I kind of initiated and, you know, kind of, like, just jovially said, like, hey, like, you want to, and your response was, like, no, like, I'm still feeling pretty guarded and just not really into, like, connecting that way. My heart's kind of off. And so I was like, okay, totally get it, yeah, absolutely, you know, championing that, championing your boundary, champion. You saying no. Super awesome. You know what happened next?

Kate MacDougall
Right?

Eric MacDougall
We kind of ended up being intimate after that, yeah? Well, I think,

Kate MacDougall
yeah. Okay. So again, I'm just like, there's a few things,

Eric MacDougall
yeah. So again, I don't have all that context, but I just want to say so then what happened, for my part, is, you know, so things were happening, and things started going on. And again, like you said, all kinds of stuff was happening. There's so many circumstances going on. And. But there was a moment as we were connecting that I was like, she's doing this because she wants to, or is she doing this because she felt

Kate MacDougall
bad? However, we have created a relationship where my No, especially in bed, means no, yes, if I change my mind, that's on me, and

Eric MacDougall
that's exactly what my I kind of pattern interrupted, which was like, no, like, Kate wouldn't be having sex if she didn't want to have sex. We've always committed to having sex that we both want. And so the fact that she changed her mind and decided to do this that was on her initiative, she's doing this because she wants to yeah and yes, you're 100% right, because you have said no in the past, because we've championed the No. I can trust that your yes is real

Kate MacDougall
Yes, and I said no, and truly stuck to it, yeah. Like, a hard no, yeah.

Eric MacDougall
I'm not saying I got these skills, you know, like, and kind

Kate MacDougall
of things happen 100% and I think

Eric MacDougall
so again, you know, just kind of using that as an example in kind of real time, what happens when you're able to say no to your partner from a good place? Now I want to add this because this is really important. Now. I don't want people to be listening to this and go, awesome. I'm going to say no to whatever the hell I want. Exactly. There's a big difference here in saying no from a place of, like, what we call protest behavior, right? Like, this kind of attachment style, protest behavior, which is like, digging your heels in the sands, arm cross, like, making a statement, tantrum, yeah, exactly me. Like, no, like, I'm not giving you this because I want to withhold love and I'm hurt and blah, blah, blah, like, and like, doing it to kind of hurt your partner, right? Or just because it's not in service to you or the relationship we don't want, like, we're not encouraging that. Like, don't do that. You need to, like, look yourself in the mirror and get real about what you're saying no to and why you're saying no. Yeah, I'm kidding. Jabbed it there. Like, not you. Listener, we love you. The guy who's over over your shoulder curious about this podcast, but what we want to do as well, you know, is not do the no for protest behavior, but we want to be able to say no and then explain why we're saying no, like you want to let your partner in on it's exactly

Kate MacDougall
like what happened yesterday, like it was I could have easily, like no, just turned over and said nothing or no and invented a reason I have cramps, like, it's no, I just not feeling it tonight, like, but the fact that I was honest about it, like, no, and that was vulnerable, right? Yeah, absolutely to be like, No, I'm so hurt. My heart is guarded. So no, like, Oh, that. Like, still feels icky for me to say it. Wait,

Eric MacDougall
what were you afraid of? Because I think it's really important that

Kate MacDougall
it was gonna open a can of worms. Open a can of worms and we're gonna just start a fight at like, nine o'clock at night.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, because I think a lot of people can relate to exactly that fear, which is, I want to say no, but I don't want to get into a fight. And some people out there who would just have sex instead of getting into a fight, and we're telling you, please don't do that. Don't do that. Either you don't have to do either you don't have to have sex and you don't have to get into a fight, right?

Kate MacDougall
So, yeah, but being very clear and specific about what it is that you're saying no to, and the reason, I mean, not what you're saying no to, the reason you're saying no to it. And you know, having a relationship where you can trust that the person who says, No, my heart's guarded. I'm not feeling good and trusting that. Like, okay, well, they're gonna do something about this, you know, or they're gonna help me for support in that or, and that's exactly what or even asking how I can help. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you, you know, through this and whatever. And so I think that's important too. But you know, saying no to your partner, and the more you do it, the easier it becomes, you know, and again, we're not saying say it all the time, but you know, when you say no, you have to become aware of like, well, you know, say you're saying no to sex all the time. There's always no, no, no, no, no. Okay, fine, but like, You got to figure out why you're saying no, and eventually come to a place where you can say yes, and if you're you're not able to get to a place where you can say yes. Well, maybe ask yourself, what's the bigger problem here? Like, yeah, there's got to be, I've got to go get some help here to help me. And

Eric MacDougall
I think we're opening up like an entire can of worms here near the end of the episode. So I don't want to go too deep into it. We can do a whole other episode about this. But what you're describing too, you know, we call it in a lot of the work that I do is like stealing your partner's choice, which is in those moments, if you're not honest about your experience of sex, and, you know, maybe it's painful, or maybe it's repulsive to you, or maybe you're just at a place where you have no interest in it and do not want to have it at all,

Kate MacDougall
right? And not even just sex, like going out on a date with your Yeah, going, you know, being seen in public with them, holding their hand, yeah, public displays, I want

Eric MacDougall
to say you're like, yeah, there's the. Like, there's nothing wrong with what you want. Like, if you don't want to have sex with your partner, that's not wrong of you. No Right. What? What I would say again, I really want to judge, but what I would say is something that is not healthy, and something that you need to look at is you need to be honest with your partner about that, instead of saying maybe next time, maybe eventually, and kind of like stringing them along, because then what you're doing actually is you're stealing their choice to respond to you saying, I don't ever want to have sex with you forever. And I get it. Your fear is, you know, maybe your partner doesn't want to be in a sexless marriage, so then they get to make choices. But that's what I mean by like, oftentimes. And so I don't open this can of worms, because it's way more complex. But when you're not being honest, what you're doing is stealing your partner's choice. You're actually manipulating the situation in order to prevent your partner from making a choice in response to your direct situation. So what are you doing? You're kind of like disguising the situation to make sure your partner can't really get too mad, and that's manipulation. That's not and I'm not even saying people like people do this, they're not even aware of it. No, no, yeah, and so yes, I love what you're saying, which is being honest about what's going on for you if you don't want to have sex, it's not just like, I don't ever wanna have sex with you again. Explain why, and allow your partner to understand you and empathize with you and

Kate MacDougall
then do something about it. Yeah, like, do something about it. If my heart is hurting and I don't want to have sex with Eric, I need to do something about it. I need to find ways to heal my heart. And if that's reaching out to Eric and saying, Hey, I need you to do XYZ to help me. And also, I will do these things to help myself. But I need to do that, and I need to be open to that, because if I'm just like Eric said, crossing my arm, saying, Nope, you piss me off last night, and that's it. That's all like, we're not having sex and I'm withholding it from you, like, that's not okay, yeah. And

Eric MacDougall
I think the last part here that I want to add is that that's under the idea that for you, sex is part of a healthy relationship, right? And so that's really important, that the reason that you be healing and trying to work towards creating sexual connection, again, is because that is a value for you in your marriage, and it's a value for me in my marriage, exactly right, which is our marriage. But again, if you're like, sex is not valuable for you, and you want to be in a marriage where there's no sex, you have to be open with your partner about that, so then you can either work together on how you want to move forward, right, and whatever that is right, whether it's, you know, dating people outside the marriage, deciding to end the marriage, you know, whatever, there's plenty of options.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and I think that a lot of people have these nice guy tendencies, nice girl tendencies. And saying no is a very difficult thing. Saying No, for me is very difficult. I don't want to hurt somebody, I don't want to scare somebody, I don't want to make somebody sad, whatever like all I think about is, if I say no, there's definitely going to be this negative outcome. So what we encourage you to do is start by saying no to something this week. Yeah, something easy. Whether it be, when the barista asks you if you want a straw with your Starbucks, say no. Just say no. Just because practice it, yeah, drink

Eric MacDougall
your Starbucks out of the cup. Yeah, drink it out of

Kate MacDougall
the cup. Yeah, stop waiting turtles. I

Eric MacDougall
love that idea, and I think that's a really great action step to, like, start seeing where in your life you could say, No, that would feel good, but also maybe benefit not only you, but benefit the lives of the people around

Kate MacDougall
you exactly your relationships and things like that, and you're building trust. Not only are if you're saying no to your parents or your friends that in association, is building trust in your marriage. So try to say no, whether it's at the for the barista or you're saying no to your spouse for something that you truly don't want to do and give a kind reason behind it. You don't have to give a reason to the barista, but give a reason to your spouse, yeah, and

Eric MacDougall
maybe offer up an alternative too, right? It's like, if you're saying no to this, if you're if your spouse, you know, I say, think about this all time. Is a great example. But you know, you want me to sit down and watch a show with you in bed? And I say, No, it's not something I want to do right now. I'm going to do my own thing. But do my own thing, but I would love it if we could do that together on Friday night. So I'll make sure I align my days. On Friday night, we can sit together in bed and watch your show because I feel good to you. Yeah, right. And then it's kind of like a win win, where it's no, but let's set up and plan for it accordingly. So yeah, start saying no. Explain why you're saying no in a really empathetic way, and then really move forward.