How to Help your Spouse be a Better Parent

In this episode, Kate & Eric discuss how to navigate tough conversations in relationships, focusing on parenting disagreements.

Topics:
➡️ Addressing disagreements on parenting styles without shaming your partner.
➡️ Utilizing a framework for challenging conversations that emphasizes understanding.
➡️ Supporting each other in moments of frustration and establishing trust.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
Today, we're talking about how to have kind of tough conversations, how to kind of work through them.

Kate MacDougall
Obviously, in every relationship, there's going to be disagreements, and you're not gonna see eye to eye eye to eye on everything. And, you know, this is coming from a listener question. Actually.

Eric MacDougall
That's right. And the listener specifically was talking about parenting. So we're going to kind of share it through the lens of parenting challenges. And again, not challenges of like, how to parent, but like, together, you and your partner having differences of opinion on your parenting styles. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
so ideally, like, not ideal, but really, what the listener was sharing was that, you know, his partner tends to yell a lot when she's around the kids and threats and things like that. So he was kind of describing his partner and, and sharing that, you know, that's seems to be something he disagreed with, with like, yeah, so

Eric MacDougall
it's kind of how to go about navigating in that conversation. He clearly loves his partner. Yeah. And he obviously

Kate MacDougall
doesn't want to shame her or make her feel like crap for you know, being the parent she is and understanding also giving your partner grace to Right. Like, they have their own journey, they have their own things they're going through, sometimes we are, are more snappy with our kids, not because we're bad parents, just because there's patients as short, or we don't really know how to do things otherwise. So you know, when when you have disagreements in your relationships, when you're seeing your partner do something and you're you're like, makes you cringe, like, oh, my gosh, why do you do that? Like, I disagree with it completely. Like, whether it be money, you know, like, why does she keeps spending money, we know, we don't have the money. Like, it's

Eric MacDougall
not only like I disagree with you, but it's all we do also have to honor and take into consideration that the choices that your partner is making are directly impacting you, right, and so impacting you, when Eric decides to spend 1000s of dollars on something that impacts Cait exam, right? And so really understanding that, and how are different beliefs around money, case, beliefs around money, my beliefs around money, you know, we're talking about the money situation here, that's going to affect us, but understand that also, my choices that I make around money, which is our money, as a family impacts, Kate directly, right,

Kate MacDougall
and the choices I make as a parents are going to impact our children. And you know, these are all things that, you know, as a partner, you kind of, you can't just throw up your hands and say, Oh, it is what it is, I'm just gonna let it happen. Like, if you know, you see your bank account getting smaller and smaller, you're seeing your kids being emotionally impacted by the behavior of your spouse, like, obviously, you can't just throw up your hands and say, oh, so these discussions or discussions that need to be had, but they're so it's a very vulnerable conversation, it's a very scary conversation for some people

Eric MacDougall
can be very triggering to people because you're you're putting into question a lot of the way you do things and, and so what we're going to do is kind of walk you through a framework that we use to kind of walk you through this conversation, so you can utilize it. And again, we're gonna be doing it through the parenting lens, like how to work together through parenting challenges, but you can use this for money, you can use this around your sexual relationship, you can use this around your boundaries of, you know, friendships you have with other people, etc. Right? The framework that we're gonna share is any challenging conversation. You can use this framework in order to understand your partner and essentially, try to get on the same page that you mutually agree on. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
in a very team building way in a very, like unifying way in a way that puts you guys both on the same page. I think one of the biggest things that I learned in our journey as a couple is the problem is the enemy Not your partner. Yeah. And once you can see things through that lens, it's, it changes everything. So if you can see that, you know, whatever it is, that's, you know, causing your partner to possibly yell at the kids. That's the enemy. That's what you need to figure out, not be angry at your partner, because she always yells at the kids be angry at the situation that is causing us be angry at the, you know, this problem that needs to be solved. That's the problem that needs to be solved, not your partner, your problem needs to be solved. So changing that lens has been a huge, huge game changer in our relationship.

Eric MacDougall
That's right. And especially, you know, like you're saying, think about the problem is kind of the enemy. But that's like a third thing outside. And that's something that you and your partner can work towards overcome. Yeah, right. And so in this case, it could be like the kids being yelled at. And it would be easy for you to say, Whoa, my partner has to do is stop yelling. But there's a bigger problem there, which is something's creating a space where your partner short on patience, you're broke, because your partner doesn't enjoy yelling, shut down, like, this is amazing. I love yelling at my kids, like, nobody likes that. And so we're going to walk through this framework. The first thing, and this is like the foundation, never forget this as you enter into challenging conversations is, it is always better to seek to understand first than to be understood. So that's really important, because our natural tendency, when we see something going wrong, is going to be to respond to it by trying to change the situation. And typically what we do is we try to bring in new information or convince a person to change.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, and usually we're convincing them of a way that we know Yeah, which is usually our way, which then comes off as my way is the only way and is the right way. That's right.

Eric MacDougall
And that's you trying to be understood. Yeah, what we want to do instead is seek to understand which means and this, this entire framework is designed around that. Okay, so don't ever forget that. Now, the first thing you want to you want to know is you don't want to to jump in and try to have this conversation as this is happening. Right? So in this case, if your partner is yelling at your kids, you don't know but let me ask you this question. No,

Kate MacDougall
I see you're very frustrated. But please let me investigate.

Eric MacDougall
What we want to do is deal the situation is hand tracked, you know, that could be as easy as you saying, like, Hey, you want me to tag in? Or? Or sometimes it's even like, let them kind of work it out. Yeah, it happens. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And you do that a lot with my parenting sometimes, like, I'll be like, bla bla, bla bla bla, talking way too much. Because I talk a lot from surprise. I don't know why, like kind of my job. But like, you'll just let me talk my head off. And then after that, after like, the whole situation is done, then you'll come up to me. And then you do this first step.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. Which is, try to understand. So what you really want to understand first is kind of the big picture, which is, where's your partner coming from here? Right. And so let's say we use this idea of parenting, we want to seek to understand like, what is your partner's beliefs around parenting? What do you think the role is? Right? And so this is kind of what we call the macro. But this is like the big picture.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, what what did your partner's childhood look like? Yeah. Where

Eric MacDougall
did they learn how to do this? All that kind of when they

Kate MacDougall
were being disciplined? What did discipline look like in their home? What are you know, the values that they want to bring as a parent, like in their head when they picture like a good parent? Is this like, what is that in their head? Yeah, what was

Eric MacDougall
modeled for them, all that kind of stuff. Now, remember, if this is the first time you do this, jumping into this massive conversation about belief systems and family of origin might be threatening for your partner. Yeah. But this is important for you to understand. And this will take time. So if you think about it, you're gonna have lots of conversations that will build what we're talking about here, which is, oh, I can understand that your behavior is generated from here, because you saw your parents do it. And you want to either do the same thing, or the opposite thing, right, which typically do. And so this is going to be built over time. Just remember, you're not going to dive into the deep end here about family of origin belief systems, ideals of parenting, my

Kate MacDougall
standard partner like 1,000% For sure. And this is probably a conversation that has been started already. Maybe these are things that have been brought up before. And this is a good opportunity to get curious about it. Like hey, when your dad used to yell at you like how did that make you feel? And not to do it in like a manipulative way like I'm trying to bring you to think about Yeah, they can feel it so if you're gonna ask that question because you're trying to bring them to think well, how did you think our son feels when you yell at him like that's nope don't do that. Stop Don't even ask the question.

Eric MacDougall
That's like again, you masking seeking to be understood exactly kind of in there. And like I said, if you do that, you're already screwed.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. So what you're trying to do here, through many conversations, not necessarily you know, in one day, it's you really want to understand where your partner is coming from as a parent what is in the parenting backpack what is in their parenting textbook that they've written for themselves, or that they've, you know, had parents help them write in their past and just really understand like, where Is this behavior possibly coming from this right? If your partner was yelled at all the time as a child, it makes sense that that's what they think, is an ideal way to raise children. Or they might not think that that's a good way, but it's the only way they know. So they've probably never taken the time to find another way to do it. And

Eric MacDougall
in all reality, and again, this is why that this is important as a foundation. Because over time, you're gonna start to understand where your partner's behavior comes from, emotionally. So when they're not in their human brain, and they're just making choices on the fly, they're reacting from a place have kind of that inner child. And so understanding where that comes from is gonna be very important for you to support them and not jump in and kind of try to strangle them when they're doing this thing. You just think, oh, you know, they're in their amygdala here, they're kind of going nuts. So I just need to help them calm down. And to be honest, if you're in a long term relationship, you probably already understand some of this, right? You've probably had your partner's opened up about how growing up and all that stuff. So I, you know, you talk to a lot of people, and they kind of get their partner somewhat, you want to seek to understand that in order to help you set this foundation, when you're approaching your partner that will help you get have empathy, see them as a human who's also struggling in that moment, etc.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, if you're praying it or expecting like, this is a great conversation to start having right now.

Eric MacDougall
So that's kind of the first part. And again, that's the foundation. The second part is now we're going to like more specific. And so what you want to do here is you want to dial in, on in the moment, like what was motivating that specific behavior, right. And so, and again, this is where you want to start implementing some skills, right? Some communication skills. Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
If you go up to your partner, and you're just like, Why do you always yell at the kids? Right now that conversation is going to be shut down and and not gonna go anywhere you want it to go, and it is not going to be good.

Eric MacDougall
And another conversation might start, which is like, Why do you always look cute and Exactly. And so really important in standing, utilize your skill, you know, going up to your partner and saying, like, Hey, I'm just to understand, like, what was it you were hoping to create in that moment? Or what do you want the kids to do? Exactly, yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And even starting with like, facts like, hey, earlier, I saw you yelling at the kids. Do you want to explain to me, you know, what was going on for you in that moment? That's it, just stick with the facts. Not like, I always see you yelling at the kids. It feels like every time you talk to the kids, you're yelling at them. One specific situation, hey, the other day when you were in the living room with your son, I saw you yelling at him. Do you want to explain to me kind of what was going on for you in that moment?

Eric MacDougall
That's right. And I think that by having these conversations, you really also want to kind of validate and give your partner grace, that like, doesn't mean that they're like, rah, bad people or anything, right? They're not a bad parent, because they yell their kid. I mean, you know, raise your hand, if you haven't yelled at your kid, I hope nobody put their hand up. Like the reality is, we all have our kids, it happens.

Kate MacDougall
And if you did put your hand up, please email me. Your tips. Now we need to have you on the podcast. You are a parenting professional and need to make millions of dollars. That's

Eric MacDougall
right. And I think really understanding that, like you want to have your partner grace. So when you're approaching this, you're not coming at it from an accusatory state, you're coming at it from something you're noticing, I love that idea of like the observation, the fact and try to understand kind of what they were hoping to create. Because something was motivating their behavior, right in that moment. And again, it might be your partner might not be willing to open up because maybe they themselves are ashamed of what's motivating their behavior, right? Maybe what's monitoring their behavior is I needed my kids to do exactly what I was telling them right away, or, you know, my son to stop yelling, or I needed my son to stop talking to me that way. Right? That's okay, if that's the motivation, you want to seek to understand that, because that's kind of the starting point to then take that thread and kind of go start moving with that, of like, Okay, if that's your motivation, now, we can talk about, you know, big picture, like, what are you afraid that's going to create long term?

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, in real time, I could see that this conversation might be like, hey, what was motivating you in that moment? And your partner might come up with an IT and like, I don't know, I don't I don't know, I was just like, losing my patience. So that's when you start getting curious, start getting deeper, asking kind questions, you know, well, you know, I saw that you lost your patience. And, you know, in that moment, what is it that you know, you seek to get when when you raise your voice the kids like, or

Eric MacDougall
what did you want Johnny to do? Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And what was it that you needed? And, and, you know, even even further going further, like, was it that you wanted this? Was it that you wanted that giving them options maybe to choose from because sometimes, you know, thinking back at like some shitty situation where you weren't showing up at your best doesn't really feel good. So giving your partner options maybe like, was it this was it that that might make them kind of Yeah, was that like, I know, often you'll do that you'll give me some options. Like it's it seems like it might have been trying to do this or was it more like you're trying to do that? And I'm like, Right. Yeah, no, it was that I was trying to do this. Actually, I didn't really think about that. But now that you mentioned, it totally makes sense that that's what I was trying to get. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And another cheat code here that you could kind of throw in is empathize by sharing your experience, right? If your partner is like, I don't really know. And then you can say, like, can I kind of share what happens to me when I yell? And then it's like, I typically yell like, when I lose my mind, I just need the kids to do exactly what I want them to do. Yeah, that's when I yell and scream. Yeah, I

Kate MacDougall
love that. Because that part really gets you both on the same page here. I'm not seeing was a bad guy here. Like, I yell too. We've we've both done it. You've we've both done this and, and right, then in there, your partner's not having to put up the shields putting up the defense walls and being like, Okay, where's this conversation going? They're like, Oh, okay, we're having a conversation, we're having a discussion my partner just wants to know, yeah, and even

Eric MacDougall
if you're not a yeller, right, like, own up like this is where you want to be vulnerable, and kind of put your heart out there and say, like, hey, typically, when the kids don't listen, to me, this is what I do. And I don't think that's healthy either. And I just notice, you know, I want to have a conversation on what we can do differently, in order to really help the kids kind of listen, but also help us be more patient and kind of move towards feeling

Kate MacDougall
we have to lose our minds all the time like that. That's exhausting. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And then this is where now, you know, as you're having this conversation, you're you're seeking to understand, you're driving to curiosity. Now, what we want to do is we want to start moving forward. And be very careful here. Because when I say moving forward, I'm not saying now you need to move your agenda forward. What I mean is that now you want to try to think about the future. And what we're talking about here is the ideal. So we've kind of talked about the past, we've talked with the president of like, hey, what's the motivation, etc. In the moment, you know, probably even deeper than that is like, Okay, what's the fear? What are you trying to stop, etc, like, we're getting curious here. But at some point, you want to flip and you want to try to think about the long term ideal. And this is where now you anchor your parenting style, into, like, hope, possibility, like the best, right? And so this is now where you want to switch the conversation and be like, hey, if we could, like, have everything we want, as parents, or you can frame this conversation as you want, but like, if you imagine, like our kids growing up and being super fucking awesome, you know, like, what would they be experiencing? What would we be seeing as looking at our 2030 year old kids like, what's our hope for them? Right, and now, what's happening is we're creating this kind of future that we can both tether ourselves to. Because I'll guarantee the reality is, you probably both want great futures for your kids now, whether there's different things that you imagine that future to be for them, that's where you can collaborate and bring it together. But in the end, your parents, you love your kids. So the outcome you want for them is always a great outcome. You're not like, I hope my son ends up being a drug addict. And like,

Kate MacDougall
he goes to jail for the rest of the life. Yeah, like,

Eric MacDougall
no, that's not parents don't hope for that parents hope for the best. And so talk about the best. What do you hope, like, when you think about our kids in the future, what do you hope for them. And when you're able to tether like, this is the why Right? Like, why we're doing what we're doing as parents, that's what you want to tether it to, which is like, this is the ideal we're moving towards. Once you have that. So now that we've like, established this, that's what you want to hold on to. Because that becomes the foundation for everything in the future that becomes your compass. So in our, you know, role as parents, every time I'm raising my voice and yelling, and I'm, you know, maybe like using guilt or shame to try to manipulate my kids or I say hurtful things, Kate steps in. And she says, Eric, remember, right, or ideal. And then that immediately, like, triggers me and says, like, right, like, I want my son to feel good about himself, I don't want my son to feel shitty, I want my son to be confident. And by me, using shame or guilt to get what I want to do that is going to lower his confidence in the long run, that's gonna make him question himself in life, right. And we've done that outside of the conversation, we've done some of that work to understand. So now very quickly, Kate is able to kind of rock me out of that decision. But that can only happen by me connecting to the ideal that I have for myself, that I took part in creating. Because if it's Kate's ideal, I don't have any buy in. So if Kate's ideal is like, I need her kids to go to university and be super smart and make lots of money. And I'm like, that doesn't mean anything to me. Yeah, well, then I will not have buy in and be on that page. So I'm not gonna have motivation to do anything. Yeah, and

Kate MacDougall
I don't want to get too deep into this with the ideal but being very careful about that ideal, right? Having a very specific ideal I want my kid to grow up go to university, become a doctor have a great job, have a great house have that may not be your kid's dream. Well, yeah, like your kid is is a person of his own with their own story. And, you know, it's okay for you to have those ideas. It's okay for you to have those ideals as long as you're not like married to them in a way that might become damaging in the future. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
so can I just jump in here? Yeah, because I think Is is really important, what you're describing not to like, correct me necessarily, but they're not ideal is their circumstances. And so really important to differentiate here like so let's say we take university and multiple towns travel home like we have, we have an idea that going to university will lead to something. And what that leads to is better career choices, more money, etc. Yeah. But then if you take that further, we believe that having a better career and more money will lead to something, which is more freedom, nicer stuff, you know, better choices, less pain. So now if you keep taking this down the rabbit hole, we get to a place where it's like, I want my kids to feel free, be able to make whatever choice they want. never suffer, you know, like, so these are the ideas that we're talking about.

Kate MacDougall
That's what you have to come up with. That's how they're gonna get there. Exactly, not what you think will lead to the idea. That's, that's what I was trying to say, Yeah, let's go further go way down, way, way back, like what is it, okay, you want them to go to university, why go further go for, like,

Eric MacDougall
an ideal is not like I want my I want my son to be to marry a rich woman and have lots of kids. And ideal is I want my son to be in a loving, committed relationship where he feels secure. And, you know, if he wants to be a great father, learn how to be a great father to his children. Yeah, right. That's like that would be like an ideal and even then be careful about the father, because that might be your goal. Yeah, maybe their

Kate MacDougall
goal, they might not want to get married, they might not even want to be in a relationship. Maybe they want to get into polygamous relation, like we can go down the rabbit hole with this just being very careful with your ideals. But what I'm I think, what we're trying to say here is, is you don't come up with a vision of what ideally you would like your grown adult children to look like how you want them to present themselves in the world. Yeah, I want to be interested, I want them to be kind I want them to be like, these are things that you can fit in sort of kind of control as a parent, you know, you can't control whether they're gonna go to university or not. But you can control whether they're gonna grow up to be kind or not, you know, by the actions and the way that you bring them up. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And so that's what we want to tether ourselves to. And what we're, what we're talking about here is, like, What do each of you want in terms of like the outcome of raising your kids? What are some of the values you want to instill? What are what are some of the things you want to teach them about the world? How do you want to love them? How do you want them to experience life in the future, etc, right, that's kind of what we're talking about. Now, when you have that, now, you want to work backwards. And this is where the pattern interrupt comes, because this is where and again, don't just put on your partner here, you go first and talk about some of the choices you're making, that are either moving towards that ideal or taking away from the ideal, if the ideal is to make sure that my kids feel loved and connected in the future and have high standards when it comes to relationship. Well, me working too late at night, and never spending time with them is not moving towards that. And so if I work too much, Kate will step in and say, Eric, you've been working a lot, and you haven't really been involved with the family, she just doesn't sit there. And let me do that. Because she knows that one of my ideals is for my kids to feel loved, connected, etc. And that I have a huge opportunity as a dad to do that, and to help them feel valued, etc. And so that's an example of how Kate in this case, based on our ideal can tether me and can help me make choices in order to, you know, essentially course correct. If I'm forgetting what my ideal

Kate MacDougall
is, right, so let's say we go back to this example of, you know, your spouse always yelling to the kids at the kids or, or that that your spouse makes threats, having this ideal, saying, you know, we want them to grow up be respectful adults, kind adults, you know, but in order to do that, we need to start respecting them, we need to start demonstrating kindness to them. And I think that yelling, and you know, threatening, these are not things that I want my child to do to friends at school, this is not something that I want my child to do as an adult to get his way or their way. So I need as a parent to start modeling that. And so maybe next time we're frustrated, these are the things that we can do. And if I feel that I'm boiling, like I'm about to lose my cool, like, I'm like, I do this personally, like I will go get Eric and I need to tap out because I'm about to strangle somebody, like there's not there's not ideal like and I know that this is not going to go towards what we want with our kids. So I'm going to model to my kids, when you are frustrated and when you're ready to smack someone take a breath walk away and go get some help. And that is something that I hope that they can do as adults as grown adults. I hope it's something they can do as children in school right now. So working backwards now and going towards that that end goal and you know breaking those cycles that we might have grown up with being yelled at or being shamed or being, you know, threatened. Understanding that that didn't work for me, that didn't feel good for me. It's time for me to cut that so that my kids don't do that to their kids and future generations on.

Eric MacDougall
That's right. Yeah. And I love that idea of modeling that behavior, right? Because then what you want to be doing is really thinking about, like, how can we support each other in moving towards this ideal? And when we get a snag or when we, you know, trip and fall, etc. So the time you do yell your kid, because it might happen? It's going right? Yeah, let's be real. We're

Kate MacDougall
human. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
It's like, How can I help you in that moment? It's not like, Okay, so we're in agreement, you'll never yell again. No, it's like, hey, if this does happen again, how do you want me to step in and help you out? Yeah. Right. And so it might be like, well, in that moment, I really need you to kind of just remind me put your hand on my shoulder, say, like, I got this, allow me to step away. And for you to step in. That's what I that's what I need to happen in that moment, because I'm fucking losing weight, and I can't do anything.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, I think another just quickly, like when it comes to parenting, another huge thing is having trust in your partner, trusting that your partner is gonna have your back. So when I walk away from yelling at my kids, my partner is not going to talk shit about me to my kids, my partner is gonna say, hey, that wasn't okay. The way you spoke to your mom, know what Mommy did was not okay either. But you do not speak to your mother that way. And that's something I find you do often, especially with our son, because he likes to back talk. And him and I are like the same person. It's just, I'm bigger. And he's a tiny version. And it makes me so angry, and but you will have my back. And I trust that when I turn around and walk away, you're not going to be like, Oh, sweetie, I know mommy. So mean a right? Like, I trust that I can walk away from the situation, go lose my cool and my bedroom by myself on a pillow or something just yelling at Ron instead of yelling at my kids. And I understand that you're going to have my back and that you're going to stay within that framework of this is the ideal for our kids. And this is how we want to raise them. And these are the things we're going to do to get them there. And that will be

Eric MacDougall
a team, right? We're going to be to you and I are on a team working on the problem. And the problem is not our son, the problem is, our son is pissing in a public park. And that's not okay. And we need to help kind of understand that right. And so really important. And so if we kind of break it down just quickly, again, the first thing is, you want to think about big picture. So like, essentially, what your partner was raised in what was their belief systems, that's like an ongoing conversation, then in the moment, right. The second part is what was motivating them specifically in that moment. And so there was a motivation, they wanted to create change, they wanted to get somebody to control them, etc. Then you want to kind of shift and start to think about, okay, what's the big picture that we're moving towards here? What is the ideal? What is your hope that you have for your kids, etc. So like, if we had the best case scenario, and our kids grew up to be amazing human beings that we were so proud of? What would that be like, right? And then you want to start thinking about, okay, in order to move towards that ideal, right? What are we doing right now? That's not landing? What are we doing that is landing? And how can we help each other in those moments when we falter. And I think if you this conversation will really help you understand more about your partner. And as you can see, right, very little of it was me telling my partner what to do, and how to change. A lot of it was seeking to understand, and this is what we really want you to take away is it like, yes, it's gonna take more effort to do this, just like it's gonna take your partner more effort not to yell at your kids, and instead get down on their level, and walk them through challenging situation. By taking the high ground you're thinking about the big picture in the future. Right. So give your partner some grace. Yeah, it's hard. Sometimes it's easier to yell at your kids than it is to sit down and kind of walking through a situation. Just like it's probably easier for you in the moment to shame and guilt your partner to stop yelling than it is to have this conversation that sets us healthy foundation. Okay, so just understand that this is the high road, it might take a bit more effort, but it's totally worth it big picture, if you're planning on breaking generational cycles, and kind of creating healthy relationships long term.