Is your Partner having Sex Out of Obligation?

In this episode, Kate & Eric explore the complexities of sexual desire and connection in long-term relationships.

Topics:
➡️ The complexity and individuality of women's sexual desire
➡️ Distinguishing between openness and initiation in sexual relationships
➡️ The importance of trust and communication

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
So today, we're answering a listener question, which is good. You know, it's, it's around the topic of sex and connection, which I always love talking about, and jamming on. Specifically, this is a listener that wrote into us kind of asking about what his wife was talking about, and really not wanting to fall in kind of trap of duty sex. So the question is, how can I? Or how should I interpret my wife being open and receptive to connection, but still not initiating connection? Right? And then the second part of the question, which I think we're gonna touch on, as well is, is this progress? Or is my wife feeling obligated? And this is really important, because I think that's a fear for a lot of men. But I really wanted to read this question. So we could talk about, you know, from the founder perspective, from your experience as a wife, kind of what you think this woman is going through what you think she's saying, again, not knowing this woman. And then I can talk about maybe the fears that the man might have and kind of what the trip trepidation is here for him. So what do you think would lead a woman to telling her husband, you know, maybe after a cycle of disconnection, whether it's been months or years, to say, Hey, I'm kind of open and receptive to it, but then not necessarily taking action? Yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I mean, they, we've, we've gone through this in our relationship many times, like, I think, I think first and foremost, the most important thing here to understand is to try and understand a woman's desire for sex would be like trying to read every single encyclopedia in every single language that was ever written on this planet. Like it is impossible to understand a specific woman's desire cycle because because it's different for it's different for absolutely every woman and our hormones play a huge role when it comes to sex. So our everybody all humans have hormones and and those play a big role in your desire for sex in the way your body feels, when you get cramps and things like that. Like that could be just linked to a hormone being too high or too low or whatever. And so When you look at a woman, one specific woman, if you look at me, my hormones, just my hormones and every other woman, the same thing happens. They fluctuate during my cycle. So, but then every woman's cycle is different. Some woman, it's 21 days, some it's 27 days, some women, it's 30. Some days, like, every woman is different. And then some people don't have cycles, and then some, and then it goes by the moon, like, so when I'm telling you, it's complicated to it, it's complicated to understand, right? And so, a woman is desire is going to change according to her hormones, it's going to change according to what is happening inside her body, it's also going to change according to what's happening outside the body. So

Eric MacDougall
why do you think this wife, this man's wife, is saying that they're open and receptive to connection, but not initiating that connection?

Kate MacDougall
So I don't think that women necessarily always desire sex. I don't think that women, you know, depending on where you're at, in your cycle, and all those things, sometimes you're going to be like, yes, I want it. I'm open to it. Like you're, you're like thinking about it. But then I think other times, you're not necessarily thinking about it. But like, when it comes up, you're like, Yeah, my body feels good today. I feel like ready and open and good for this, but I'm not thinking about it, you know, and that I think it's kind of what happened in our relationship. Like,

Eric MacDougall
I think you're talking about like response with desire, right? Which is like, yeah, open to connection. And when your body feels that connection, then your brain responds with saying, Oh, I like this. Let's have more of it.

Kate MacDougall
Exactly. But I think that, you know, especially like looking at, like exactly what's going on in my life right now. Like, my brain is everywhere, thinking about everything. And

Eric MacDougall
but are you open to connection right now? Like, would you say that right now you would tell me like, hey, like, I'm open to connecting with you?

Kate MacDougall
I think right now, if you were to initiate sex, I would definitely say yes.

Eric MacDougall
Okay, so now this raises a question.

Kate MacDougall
Because then my, my mind is too busy. To slow down right now, to think about, oh, how, how is my body feeling like, I don't even I couldn't even tell you what my breathing feels like right now. Unless I really soft and focus on it. And then even then, I would probably have trouble focusing on my breathing, because I'd be thinking about the 10 things that I should be thinking about instead of that.

Eric MacDougall
So what makes you say, if I was to initiate sexual connection with you that you would say yes.

Kate MacDougall
Because right now, physically speaking, my body feels fine. I don't have pain. I don't have blockages that would you know, that personally, like, like, for example, like period, like, I personally don't like period sex. That's my own personal belief. Some people love it. I'm not into it. And that's fine. I think that for me, because I don't have that going on inside my body. My body feels fine. I'm like, you know, I like being clean. I like being showered. Before having sex. I like feeling good. Smelling good. Sure. And so all of that is working in my favor right now. Like, I feel clean, I feel good. I have no blockages. My body feels fine. Which indicates to me that physically speaking, I feel ready and open to have sex. Now mentally speaking, my mind is everywhere else. But that. Yeah. So I'm not thinking about sex. I'm thinking about all the million and other one things that I need to do. But

Eric MacDougall
I just want to be clear here, because, again, to kind of like just tether you back. Yeah, to questions. I can see I can see that. And so I'll help tether you back here. What I'm most curious about is you said that, and again, maybe just like, you just threw that out there. But like, in this instance, you would say, if you were to initiate sex, I would say yes. And then you spoke that there's nothing in your body that would prevent you from having sex with me. Yeah. So that raises actually a big fear. Which brings me to the other part of the question, which is, is this progress? Or is my wife feeling obligated? Because when you're saying that, I think a lot of men have this fear, because one of the things that men really want is not to have sex, it's to have a willing sexual partner. Yes. And when I hear like, yeah, if you were initiate sex, I would say yes, because like, you know, my, there's nothing wrong with my body. Yeah, it to me that you understand. I mean, like, to me as a man, that doesn't seem like okay, like, I

Kate MacDougall
don't want to like if you just open up your legs and allow me to enter, right, not sexy for

Eric MacDougall
you. And I think, you know, I do want to bring this up, because I think this is a fear that a lot of men have that their wife is saying yes, out of obligation. And I think that now, like, you know, brings me to this question of you saying, like, if you're initiate sex, I would say yes, but it's like, okay, but do you want it right? Yeah. But it's like, I don't want it. But my body works. So I'll have it. It's, that's what I'm interpreting. Yeah, I'm not saying yeah, that's great.

Kate MacDougall
I don't want it. Yeah, I don't want it now. I don't want it now. Right. Okay. I don't want it in this moment right now.

Eric MacDougall
To say, if you initiated, I would say yes. Because this is the foundational question of, I am open and receptive. It's kinda what you're saying, Yeah, I'm open and receptive to sex. But I'm not initiating.

Kate MacDougall
Because I know, because I've done the work. And I know that if I allow myself to be open to it, I will get into it. I also trust myself to know that if at any point, I'm no longer into it, I can say no. So right now, when you're like, if I initiate sex, would you want it? Yes, I would want it. Will I go through with it the whole time, like have a whole like session? I don't know. But I trust myself enough to know that while I'm in it, if I'm no longer into it, I'm going to say no, and stop. I also trust you enough to know that you're not going to take that personally, and shame me or not stop or try to convince me otherwise. I trust that if I say, You know what, I was kind of into this, but I'm not anymore. You're gonna be like, cool. We're done. That's fine. Thanks for telling me. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. So I think that that's why I feel comfortable enough to say, Yeah, bring it on.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah. And I do want to honor because I think you're touching on something is really important here. Because there's another part here, which is I trust that you will do that as well. And that's why for me, because of the trust that I have that you have that boundary, I am never worried about duty sex. Right. And we had made a commitment a long time ago of like, No more bad sex, you know, based on some of the coaches that helped us. But because of that, I know that when you're saying yes, because you want to have Yeah, and if at any point you're not enjoying it, you'll say something. Yeah. And that's something that I have to trust as well so that I'm not in my head being like, if she likes this is as rough as she could she because then that dumb

Kate MacDougall
thing that we worked on for a long time in our relationship and it wasn't done overnight. The answer this is trust that's been for you.

Eric MacDougall
I imagine it was very challenging to speak up like mids like saying like, yes,

Kate MacDougall
and there's even time halfway now like years into this practice like that. I still have trouble like changing positions. That's not really doing it for me, but I see it's doing it for you suddenly, oh, well, he seems to be just like a happy dog. You're like, Oh, shit. He seems to stay here.

Eric MacDougall
The reality is a lot of people do. They

Kate MacDougall
do. They do but, but I've had to really learn, you know, and it's so weird. It's so meta, but like, I learned that women carry a lot of trauma in their vaginas. I'm gonna say the word. I don't know if this is all now it's our raid in their nether regions, and in their Yoni and their Yonis. And so that you can carry a lot of trauma and memory and things like that, like, like any other muscle in your body, it contains muscle memory, and blah, blah, blah. So I learned that before doing anything to your Yoni Yoni, you need to ask her permission. You need to like respect her boundaries. Like she's a whole entity unit herself.

Eric MacDougall
Oh, man. This is like way meta for me.

Kate MacDougall
I know. You're like laughing I'm like, Okay. About periods. 15 years. years. I'm so proud of you. For you sitting here listening to me talk about my yo knees.

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I do want to get back to the question, but I do want to continue.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, it's it's part of this. Yeah. And so in order for me to heal past traumas that have been done to my Yoni, which, like, I'm a very lucky person, I do not have like, big T traumas too much for me. But I did for a very long time. allow myself to just have sex with like, not be part of the act, just be a participant and like not be an active part of like, serve somebody sexually just to serve somebody sexually. Not in a rape kind of way. I think but in a way that I was is very good. It's consensual. I was like, Yes, but I was not enjoying it. I was doing it out of obligation. I did it because I thought it was my duty as a woman to do that. And so, because of that I had some sort of trauma in my Yoni area. And so I learned that you have to ask her permission for everything and like, do I literally literally, like, whisper down to my vagina? Like, no, no, but I do respect my gut feeling when it comes to that, if there's something part of me so that's why I'm saying there's nothing in my body right now saying no, meaning my yoni. If I was like, she would whisper back to me, like, you know what I mean? So it's really learning to listen to your body and respecting your body, and respecting that gut feeling of like, I really don't want this. So I'm going to respect that. And the more you do that, the more you can trust yourself and trust that like, this needs to stop or this is a hard No, from the get go. Yeah, I think so. That's what I mean by like, there's no blockages in my body right now. Is, is right now my body is open to it right now. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm into it. But I trust myself to stop it. If I'm not. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And I think there's a whole other aspect here that that we're not touching on, which I think is important to recognize is that I'm guessing here, and you can tell me but like that, you experience pleasure. When you have sex, you enjoy feeling connected?

Kate MacDougall
And I'm not. I do something so that I do experience pleasure. Yeah. If in the moment, I'm not experiencing pleasure, I will adjust my body accordingly. To make that happen. Yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And I think I think in these moments, you know, even in this question, like, my wife is being open and receptive to connection. It's because like, she understands that that benefits her like, she wants connection. Yeah. So so in this moment, she's telling the man, the person, they saying, hey, like, I'm open to it, meaning, it's something that I want in my life. Yeah. And, and I think that's important to say, because if she didn't want her life, she wouldn't say she blocked off to it. Yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
I think that the fact that she is open to it is showing this trust either a beginning of trust, or a deep trust and her partner to say, Yeah, I am willing and open to have sex with you, and I trust you enough, that you're not going to, like, hurt me or push me to do things that I don't want, or that you're ever going to force me to be in a situation that I don't want to be in. Now, the other part of the question, the initiating part of the question, that is something that I struggled with for a long time and still struggle with, I was always taught that sex was for the man through porn through friendships through Yeah, sure. Like all that crap. Yeah. Like that sex was for the man. And the man was to be worshipped and pleased, and all that you did during sex was to, you know, make the men happy. So for me to initiate was almost like going against everything I believe, like for me to say, hey, I want to have sex is like first off super sweaty, excuse the word but like that your belief around what's my belief around belief around it was like, people are gonna think that I'm, you know, a horny devil if I asked for this. So I will not ask for sex, even though I may want it. So for a long time, like, I'm talking a long time in my life, I repressed that desire. I repress that feeling of like, Ooh, I want to have sex. It was like, oh, no, girls don't want to have sex.

Eric MacDougall
But it was like, I want to have sex. So I hope that Eric, yeah, it's

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, so it's like, I would Yeah, I would walk around look really cute and sexy. But Never would I be like, Hey, you want to have size? Because to me, that was like, wool, major faux pas not hot. Like, what are you like? Yeah. And

Eric MacDougall
I think, you know, one of the things that I'm gonna talk about, which I think is the importance here, especially like in long term, adult relationships, you know, there is a benefit to being open and not being the initiator. And so the reality isn't and kind of a fact of relationships is that the low desire partner controls the frequency of sex, right? Because the reality is you not going to actually partner if they don't want to, if they say no, it's no, and we're in consensual relationships. So it's really understand that that actually allows you to be in a position of power. Now, one of the challenges I think, for a lot of people is if they become the initiator, what they fear is that they initiate their partner gets all in on it, and then they stop it. And then it becomes a question of like, well, you initiated like, why did you get my hopes up? Why did you do this? And so from a position it's been If you are healing, especially if you are the person who is maybe a little more trepidation a little more fearful to jump right in the position of responding to initiation is more powerful and more secure for you than being the initiator. And I think that's what's happening here. And this is why it's important to recognize that when a relationship is healing, for whatever, maybe there's a disconnection that's going through, etc. The person saying, you know, in this case, the wife saying I'm open and receptive to connection, what they're saying is not like, hey, it's open season, what they're saying is, I, it's okay for you to bid and to connect anytime. But I want the opportunity to say yes or no, I want to be able to decide when it stops or no. Right. And I don't want to be the one that goes first because then I'm not sure I'm going to be able to stop if you step in. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yes, yeah. So absolutely. I want to recognize that that it doesn't mean that your partner doesn't want it. It's that it's almost like a few steps that feel secure to them. Yeah. Right. Because there is a lot of power in differentiating yourself. And this is what we want, right? long term relationships to differentiate ourselves. But there is a lot of power in your ability to say no. And what I often tell men is that the note doesn't exist without your bid. And so in order to actually help your wife hold onto herself, hold her power, feel confident about herself. You need to bid, right? You need to be the one that's asking or that's initiating. And when they say no, you want to honor that. And thank them, you want to celebrate it, because that's them holding on to themselves.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I also want to mention that initiation doesn't always look like a verbal. Hey, do you want to have sex, especially for women initiation can look like wearing cute clothes to bed instead of flannel pajamas. It can be like, you know, inviting your husband into the shower. Yes, spooning you in bed, or asking you to be spooned. And then like purposefully, popping their butt on you, you know, like, which is probably like, not what they usually do. Or yeah, inviting you to take a shower or even just like, wearing makeup to bed like yeah, like that can be very subtle initiation cues. And I would start looking for those because I'm sure they exist. Even just like, you know, randomly dropping things in front of you. Like I do that. I'll be like, in the kitchen, you'll walk in, and I'll be like, oh, I need to depend over this counter for no absolute reason. But to show you my bottom, like, and I didn't I don't say that out loud. But I'm just like, hoping like you catch on. It's more like a feral cat rally, you kind of walk around like with your tail love, like, hey, like, but those are all subtle initiation cues. So just remembering that initiating does not mean does not always look like, Hey, you want to have sex? Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
perfect example. You know, there was a guy that I was talking to recently who said, last night, him and his wife got disconnected and they got a bit of conflict. And then after they repaired, she invited him to watch television, she only went to a show with me. And he was like, Nah, it's good. Like, I think you still need some time and still felt a bit hurt. So he decided to take time for himself. And the next day, his partner said how much she wished that she would have maybe she was just saying this to kind of dig it in? I don't think so. But she was saying like, hey, like, it wouldn't be nice. If you came, I actually really want to connect with you sexually. And I thought that'd be a good time to do it. And just understanding in that moment, he's like, oh, like, I think if I would have opened myself up and opened my heart instead of being guarded, you know, and saying, like, oh, I still need to heal, but instead, understand that the healing could have been done together, that maybe you wouldn't have had sex, but it would have led to an opportunity for connection. And that that's scary, right? You reopen your heart to a person.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah. And I understand that it must feel good to be asked like, Hey, you want to have sex with me? I know that must feel good. And I know that that desire at a desire that you're you're looking for, but know that it is there. It's just more subtle. And look for those cues to because that's that's something as soon as you read that, that came to mind. I was like, Ah, she probably is initiating. You're just not seeing it. Because it's not done in the Hollywood kind of way of initiating. Yeah, where I'm like, pushing you up against the wall. And like, I want to take your clothes off right now like that that happens in Hollywood, not necessarily in everyday life. Well, yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And I love that you said, you know, we kind of wrap on this, but I love what you said, even coming back to the beginning when you said that, like, you know, like, I have a lot going on my mind. I wouldn't say it sucks, but like, I'm open to it. So if you initiate I'll say yes. And I think what we're talking about here is this openness. And when your partner is open and willing, you know, we we call it the window of willingness for a reason. When your partner is willing, that means that you get to step into that and doesn't mean that like you're going to take it all the way to the end and eventually have you know, sexual intercourse or anything like that. But it does mean like hey, there's an opportunity to connect here. So it's up to me to step in and allow my partner to respond to that and see if they want to meet me and kind of take this journey and So, you know, going back to the original question, you know, what I would say is number one, praise that your wife is open and receptive to this, celebrate that, thank her, thank you for expressing that to you, right. And then if she's not initiating, just honored that maybe she's a little more, you know, insecure about doing this type of initiation. But as Kate said, also keep your eyes out. Because if you seek to, like, look and say, like, Hey, what are ways that my wife is opening herself up to me to connection, you're gonna find it, there's ways where your partner maybe is reaching for your hand, She's inviting you to bed, she's about to get in a shower. This happens even in our relationship, and sometimes I'll miss it. Right? And it's like, you're like, oh, I want to shower. And I'm like, No, I want to answer my 400 emails, you know? And it's like,

Kate MacDougall
oh, yeah, there goes that and then there's no way in that moment that I'm gonna be like, Eric, if I don't really mean shower, I ain't shower. I was like,

Eric MacDougall
okay, and I can go away. Exactly. And so, again, if I was more receptive and more focused on this ability to connect with you, I wouldn't be open to that and say, yes, absolutely. And so and I would say it is progress, right? Of course, it's progress. You want to celebrate that. And you want to trust that your wife is not going to feel obliged to do things that she doesn't want to do. You have to trust that, and you want to encourage that, right? So, yes, you can take it slow, but you don't keep on a check. Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? No, allow her to stop.

Kate MacDougall
She's gonna tell you when she's not okay.

Eric MacDougall
And if it's later on and brings it up, and she says, Hey, like, you know, we had sex or today, it was fine. I just didn't wasn't really into it, instead of just being butthurt in that moment, and you should have told me, like, be curious, hey, what was it that didn't land for you? Right. And again, that creates more progress. So a big part of it is, you know, celebrate that your partner is opening yourself up and open yourself up, right? Because I think in this case, this man has to open himself up to trust and that the love is genuine from his partner. She wants to connect with him, and celebrate that, and then you know, trust that it's real, and take those steps in that progression together.