Is your Spouse Steamrolling You?

In this episode, Kate & Eric discuss the unhealthy communication pattern of steamrolling and its impact on relationships.

Topics:
➡️ Definition and examples of steamrolling in conversations
➡️ How insecurity and conflict avoidance lead to steamrolling
➡️ Importance of clear, direct communication to prevent steamrolling

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TRANSCRIPT:
Eric MacDougall
Today we're talking about a great topic that you brought up, steamroller,

Kate MacDougall

as a kid, right? Yeah, not the fun kind like that you do in bed while you're, like, barrel rolling. I think it's more barrel it's how people wake up.

Eric MacDougall
Roller. Yeah, you wake people up that way. That's how you wake up. Your dad when you were young, you know, like, get in bed beside him, like, put your body over him, and then he would do it to you, and,

Kate MacDougall
like, would crush you. And you're like, I know my dad never seemed rolled to me, but I'm really hoping this, this is, like, the word we're looking for. I thought it was a barrel, but anyway, whatever, like, just the idea of, like, rolling and squishing something, but that's not what we're talking about. That's all

Eric MacDougall
we're talking about. Although that is very fun, though that is very fun. Totally,

Kate MacDougall
we should, like, steamroll each other tonight. That would be so much fun. Steamroll me, maybe doing naked. Oh,

Eric MacDougall
body parts everywhere. Okay, this episode's going what is like? Lasers going off?

Kate MacDougall
I don't I don't know. No, it was more like my feeling chunky kind of skin,

Eric MacDougall
like, oh, like skin going and yeah, like, because I'm

Kate MacDougall
not feeling very tight and strong, like my chubbiness, just like

Eric MacDougall
blue skin. Oh, wow, that's, uh,

Kate MacDougall
I was picturing myself naked. I'm not proud of my body right now. I'm having a lot of it. She was with making jokes, moving on. So

Eric MacDougall
the actual topic, maybe, maybe you can give the context of what steamrolling is,

Kate MacDougall
yeah, so we're talking about it. This is something that you know. I've known about for a while now. But yeah, the other day, I read a quote by Laura Doyle, and it really hit me hard, and it was just really her quoting a part of her book, saying something like I just kept talking, which is known as steamrolling, to try to convince my spouse and get them To a place where I wanted them to agree with me. So I was like, wow, that is like a thing so many people do, and not just in intimate relationships with their spouse, like you do it with your kids. You do it with your employees, coworkers, family, essentially, you have an idea of where you want this conversation to go. You have an idea of what you want, what you need, and instead of directly asking for it, or directly going ahead and saying it, you kind of like bring the conversation to a place where whatever your spouse or person says that you're talking to, you kind of correct them and direct them in the direction you want to take them. So, you know, for example, I might you know, really want to start going see movie, more movies with Eric. That this is something Eric typically does on his own. So what might happen is, I would, you know, kind of start the conversation and talk to him and say, Hey, like, have you ever, like, thought of going to the movies with like, other people? And then he would probably say, like, No, I enjoy going to the movies alone. And it's like, oh yeah. Like, don't you feel weird? And. Movie sitting there alone, and then I would bring the conversation, and I would keep going and questioning him and whatever, until he's kind of backed into a corner to be like, well, maybe we should start going to the theaters together. And I'll be like, Yeah, what a great idea. Thanks for coming up with that high five. Yeah, right. Even though, from the get from the jump, I had the intention of at the end of this conversation, Eric is going to invite me to the movies, and that is a very unhealthy way to have a conversation with anybody, especially your spouse, yeah.

Eric MacDougall
And I think you know, as you're talking about it was coming up for me a lot, was it's very reflective, right? And what I mean by that is that it's very not like reflective in terms of like, you're reflecting on things, no, no, in terms of like, you know that like the mirror, as opposed to, yeah, as opposed to solid, you know, people are reflective. And the reflected sense of self is, you need people to view you in a certain way so you get what you want, right kind of thing. So we've talked about this on many episodes, but essentially in this moment, right? It's exactly what you're saying, which is, I need you to think a certain way so that I can get what I want. Yeah, right? And so you're constantly trying to show up in a way, engage in a way, where you're trying to, like you said, kind of backed them into a corner, but sometimes even you're kind of baiting them, right, to kind of move down this road that you want them to go down that benefits you? Yeah. And two things came to mind for me immediately. First of all, I don't know if it's true, right? And again, you listen, or maybe you're the same person who does this, two things that came to mind of like a person that might do this. First of all, they probably are really, really uncomfortable with disagreements in relationship, right? So this whole like, let's agree to disagree, this whole idea of like, you being like, I'd love to go to movies with you. And be like, I like going movies on my own. And so let's figure out how to do both. Like, you know, some people are too uncomfortable with that. It's too much like, no, no. It needs to be my way. Yeah, we need to be on the same page here. Like, we need to agree exactly on the time, right? And that's some people are like that in relationship, yeah? People who are conflict avoidant, people who hate disagreements, people who don't, you know, they always need to be on the same page as a partner, right? Which is like, we need to agree on everything. If we don't agree on anything, that makes me uncomfortable, it drives my anxiety through the roof. So I'm going to figure out ways to get you to agree with me, and so I can see how steamrolling would be used in that case. The other thing that came up with me, which is really, really interesting, is that it's a great way to avoid ever having to ask for what you want and being rejected. Yeah, exactly, because I can see how in these moments, right? Instead of just outright saying, like, this is what's going on for me, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'd like, right? And then allowing your partner to respond, instead, you're gonna try to, you know, get them to jump through hoops, to get to a point where you actually through attrition, through sheer exhaustion, they're just like, oh God, fine. Like you can just take what

Kate MacDougall
you want. Yeah, and I find this comes up for us in arguments often, you know, when we're in a very unhealthy spot in the argument, you don't feel heard sometimes, and so you're going to keep talking and keep driving your point until you feel that I've heard you. You know what I mean? Well,

Eric MacDougall
no, I do know what you mean. So for me, it would be more correct in saying until I feel understood. Okay, yes, yeah, yeah, because you hearing me and me feeling understood is two different things. Yeah, I like that. You Yeah, clarify. And some people get this really confused.

Kate MacDougall
For sure, there is a big difference between being understood and feeling heard,

Eric MacDougall
yeah, well, and no, what I'm saying is like, there's a big difference between me feeling understood and you hearing me, yes, because there's plenty of times where you hear me, but I don't feel understood, right? Because the understood part is that you are validating me. You're holding space. You're like, essentially reaching me and like, making me feel seen and heard.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah, right. But would you say that that's not some sort of steamrolling, is you just keep going and keep going and keep going. Because I do feel sometimes, and I'm saying, like, this is when we're, like, at our unhealthiest in arguments, is sometimes I'll get to the point where I just kind of tell you what I think you want to hear. Because at that point I'm back in the corner. I'm like, I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't if I say yes, here he's gonna, like, flip a lid and, like, keep going, Yeah, or if I say no, here, you know, then, then maybe it'll, like, calm down the fight, and then he'll feel like I hear him and understand him. Like, does that work? No, it doesn't. Because in in the end, I'm being dishonest. I'm not being true to myself. And, you know, in the end, it probably on the flip side, you probably don't feel very understood or heard, because you're like, probably deep down the side, you know that I'm just telling you what I want, what you want to hear

Eric MacDougall
well. And so now we're getting into. Like, dicey territory here, because, and I don't want to get too much, like, energetics and stuff, but like, if you really think about it, you trying to give me an answer so that I stop the argument that's about you, yes. So none of that has anything to do with understanding me, right? And so if I want to be understood, and this, like, happens in a lot of relationships, right? People are like, Why is it conflict? I'm giving her what you want, like, but it's like, no, you're not actually giving her what she wants, or you're not actually giving him what she what he wants. What you're actually doing is trying to give him something that you think will get him to be quiet, and that's not them feeling understood. Because in the end, like as couples, especially in a long term relationship, like, we become highly sensitized to that of like, okay, like, because in those moments, what's happening is not like, oh, did she give me what she wanted in those moments? It's, do I feel understood, right? And so in those moments, if I don't feel understood, it keeps going. And because this is like me reaching, like, Please don't leave me please. Like, I have this pain. I'm trying to show you the pain and to you, obviously you're having a whole other experience, which is, this is overwhelming. I'm feeling like I'm backed into a corner. Like, that's part of our disconnection cycle, right? But I really want to make this clear, because, like, for me, maybe I'm just being defensive here, so I own that, if that's the case, but I wouldn't say that steamrolling, because I actually don't need you to agree with me. I actually just need you to make me feel like my point, like exists. Like, I would actually rather you be like, hey Eric. Like, I really appreciate you trying. Like, listen, I get you, but I actually don't agree with you, and I, what I need right now is a break, and so I'm going to take a break, I'm going to walk away, and I'll be back in 10 minutes. That would calm me down more than you like sitting there and just like, Yep, yeah, yeah,

Kate MacDougall
yeah, I could see that. Whereas, like, steamrolling is more like you have a goal in mind, and your goal is to get on top and like, win, yeah. And that happens in a relationship, in a conversation, even though, in my head, I probably think that that's what you want. In my head, I'm like, Well, Eric just wants to win here, so he's just gonna keep talking until he gets what he wants. What

Eric MacDougall
this looks like in our relationship, and probably in a lot of relationships, is like, the constant challenging of the quest of, like, your answers, right? So it'd be like, exactly what you said earlier about the movie, yeah, the seam rolling, it's like, constantly being challenged. So you know, it's like, hey, like, you know, like, do you want to have tacos for dinner tonight? And then you're like, No, I don't really have tacos. Like, well, we don't really have anything else in the fridge. So what's your plan, right? And now we're, like, starting to enter into seam rolling territory because I want tacos. I want us to make tacos, but I need you to agree that we're having tacos, right? And so now, now it starts. So what's gonna happen is, whatever you throw at me next, I'm gonna have a rebuttal for Yeah. It's gonna cause you to keep rebuttaling, yeah. So you get to a point where exactly like you're saying, Well, I'm just exhausted. Now. We've been talking about 10 minutes. If my choice is to continue talking about this or just eat tacos. Okay? Talking tacos. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
yeah, yeah. And you know what? What's coming up for me right now is when you're steamrolling, you're probably coming from a deep place of insecurity, where you're coming from a place of I don't trust my decision, or I don't want this to bite me in the ass later. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make Eric, make the taco decision so that in a week from now, when we're like, hey, all we do is eat. Not say tacos or junk food, but say, like, it's probably not the healthiest meal. But no even tacos for seven nights. Yeah, it's like, you know, I don't want, I don't want to be the one who's who continues to feed, you know, junk food to my kids every dinner. So I, you know, I'm gonna make Eric make that decision, and then I'm not gonna be the bad guy. And then if it comes up in an argument later, I can be like, well, technically, on Wednesday, you're the one who said we'd have

Eric MacDougall
tacos. Or, like, you agreed with it. You were okay with it, yeah.

Kate MacDougall
And I feel like that happens so often in conversations, especially in couples, is well, you said, and it's like, well, and then you kind of stand there as a spouse, like, Well, yeah, Damn, you're right. I did say that, but like, I kind of had to, like, at that point, I was kind of like, well, I did. I really have another choice?

Eric MacDougall
Well, what if, in those moments you don't blame, like, instead you say, Yes, I did say that. End. Here's what was going on below the surface. Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
yeah. No, what I'm saying is that's probably what you're feeling. Is you're feeling like, Well, yeah, I did say that. But like, right? Yeah, if it's like, I was back in the corner, yeah, exactly. So I think that's a very normal situation you would see, well, you made me say that, and you'd said, you know, you didn't, I didn't have a choice to say that. You kind of had me back in a corner. And so, you know, these things happen in relationships. There's there's times where you know you definitely want something and you. Don't want no for an answer. So what would you suggest somebody do if they didn't want no for an answer? If they were like, I want tacos tonight. I don't care what my spouse says, I'm making tacos. Yeah, like it happens, yeah. Where you really wants, maybe not tacos, but something more serious than that.

Eric MacDougall
So first, I want to, like, not just jump down everybody's throat who's doing this. Yeah, really important to understand that, like you're doing this for a reason. It's a protective mechanism. Yeah, you probably learned this very young. When you asked what you want, it was thrown back in your face. So you had to figure out new and creative ways to try to get what you wanted, which included exhausting people until they gave you what you want. Okay, so let's just be clear about that. You've created a system to get what you want that has worked a long time, but now in your relationship might be leaving you and your partner feeling pretty resentful or disconnected. Yeah. Okay, so that I just want to say that because I don't want, like, to make it seem like you're wrong and you shouldn't be doing this. You're like, God, no, you're not.

Kate MacDougall
This is Part A lot of people do this. A lot of people do this, and it's just a very familiar disconnection cycle in relationships. And I think what we're our goal here is just to, you know, help listeners who may be doing this, first off, notice it, because I think a lot of times self awareness around this kind of behavior is because, like you said, it's such an ingrained habitual thing that you do that's been, you know, a way of doing things for such a long time, we might not even notice we're doing it, like our spouse might be like you pretty much backed me in a corner, and you're like, No, I didn't. And you truly think, like, No, I didn't, yeah, because your intention wasn't to do that. Your intention was just like, I just really wanted that thing, and I didn't know how else to do it, you know? Yeah. And so I think, like, when we

Eric MacDougall
think about getting what you wanted, we use the dinner example, which is a pretty simple example, because in the end, like, if you want tacos for dinner, you should empower yourself to make tacos for dinner. Just make tacos, right? You don't have to ask permission to yourself, and so that, I don't know, but I think we start kind of getting into it, which is like, I want to have these conversations. I want to have sexual connection with you, going on dates with you. I want to have conversations about parenting with things that are a little more vulnerable, sure, yeah, exactly. And then maybe would cause, like, more discomfort to have those conversations, right? So, really, really important to recognize that. Well, first I, what I always think about is like, What is this for, right? So, like, when you think about, well, I just want to be able to talk to my wife. Well, what for, right? And then typically, like, we have these automated response like, well, we're married, and we should be able to talk to you. No, no, get rid of all that crap. Yeah. Like, why is it that you want to talk to your spouse in this scenario tonight, right? And it's like, well, I miss talking to them. It's okay. Well, what type of communication Do you miss with them? Because the reality is, you can have plenty of communication. Just go piss your partner off, and then they're gonna yell back at you, and that's a great way. There you go. You just communicate. And so, so So first is, like, you really want to get clear on what it is that you want, yeah. So in these moments when you're trying to, like, you know, again, I hate the word manipulate, but, oh, Steam, steamroll, try to like, slow, slow roll yourself here and think about, Hey, what is it that I'm going for here? What is it I want use the example earlier, of, like, well, I want to go to movies with Eric. Okay, well, a little bit deeper than that, like, what for? What would that do for you? Yeah, what is it? Yeah, with him and, and then, you know, so I want to go on a dates. But I actually want to go on dates that are pretty easy, yeah. And

Kate MacDougall
I think for something like that, for example, because I remember it used to come up a lot when we played, like, a while, back when you used to play baseball, and I knew a lot of wives would go, and I was always at home with the kids, and I'd kind of mentioned, you know, hey, like, do you want me to come to baseball tonight? Like, like, that'd be cool. Like, I could, like, Come. And you're, oh, no, it's fine. It's fine. You don't have to come. Oh, yeah. Well, are you sure? You know, I'd really like our son to watch you play baseball. Like, I think that'd be really nice. And you're like, No, no, it's fine. Like, don't come. It's kind of a late game. It's fine. Like, don't come. And I think you wanted some time away from wife and kids, and you wanted, you know, your you know, time alone. But I really wanted to be there, because for me, it was, I wanted to be part of something in your life. I couldn't be part of your work because I couldn't just walk in to the restaurant when you were in the restaurant business and just be like, there while you're serving, like you're swamped, you're in a super busy restaurant. I'm not gonna be like, Hey, I'm here and then like, you're gonna pay attention to me. So it's just like, I think part of me just wanted to be involved in your life in some shape or form, you know, like, so

Eric MacDougall
again, like, for what, like, this is where, now and again, not to, like, kind of put as well, but like, a little bit deeper than that, because you're saying, like, you know, Let's brush our teeth together. Let's Yeah, but it's like, no, I. Actually, like, let's take it further. There's

Kate MacDougall
a specific way. It's like, you know, I see other husbands have their wives there. I want to show other people that you know. Like, you know, I'm your wife. I want you to be proud to have me around. I want you to show me off. I want you to, you know, show our son off. Like, yeah,

Eric MacDougall
it sounds like you want to know, or you want to trust that I want to have you around and spend time with you? Yeah,

Kate MacDougall
yeah. I think that's what that's definitely what it was. Because I think there was also, like, a lot of background stuff back then where it's like, I didn't know if you truly wanted me around. We were kind of going through a rough time in our relationship too, so it was just kind of like, hey, if he invites me to baseball, which is something that's very like personal to him, then maybe I'll be like, that's like, an in like, hey, like, I want you best part of my

Eric MacDougall
life. That's an affirmation, yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, like, he likes having me around, right? If I was just like, let's go to the Walmart together, that wouldn't be enough of an affirmation, because it's not enough of my own thing.

Kate MacDougall
Yeah? So I think at that point, once I get clear on my why, which is, I want to trust that you want me around. I want to know that I'm a person you want to spend time with, yeah? Which

Eric MacDougall
is very vulnerable, right? So we're talking about like this, and it's pretty secure to have this conversation, yeah? Because now it's like, you know, 100 years later, but not every individual would feel security to be able to, for sure, share that sure, but

Kate MacDougall
that, I think that's the step, is figuring out why, and then at that point, you share your why, and you

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, and you could certainly share your why. And I think if you're at a place where maybe feeling a little more guarded. That's a little vulnerable, sure, which is okay, so again, I agree 100% like, reveal what's going on for you that's very, very important. Like, hey, like, I'm questioning my place in your life. I'm really not feeling like I have a place. And I guess when I think about you going to baseball, like, this idea that you would want me to this thing that is strictly yours would really make me feel like you want me to be part of your life, right? And so I'm feeling a bit insecure around that. What are your thoughts on that, right? And just like them sharing, I think that's really, really powerful,

Kate MacDougall
however, very, very difficult,

Eric MacDougall
right? And so if you're at a place, first of all, you should definitely get clear on your why, yes? Because one of the worst things you can do is like, um, make a request from from from your partner to provide something for you, and then they provide it, and it doesn't do anything for you, right? And it doesn't fill that because it's actually not the thing that you actually wanted, right? So I use a lot of examples of like, people who have sex with their wives and or their husbands, then they have sex, and it's like they still feel empty. Yeah? It's like, well, that's not actually what I wanted. I wanted closeness. I wanted to be able to look in your eyes. I wanted an affirmation that we were good, yeah. Like, sex did not do, did not do that, right? So getting more clear on that, and then, so I think when you get clear on it, then what I would say is, like, invite your partner into it, or request them to join you on something that could create that. Yeah. So don't

Kate MacDougall
saying, Hey, I'm gonna come to baseball, which is a thing you want to do on your own? Yeah, it's, well, what are other ways that I could, that Eric could, you know, that I could see that we have this connection, yeah, that I'm seeking, and maybe that's, you know, taking some time to have, like, an intimate date with you, like, where we're just the two of us, where we're, you know, sitting close and being side by side and having some nice conversation, asking some questions, revealing parts of ourselves that we might not have done in a while. So yeah, for sure, like, instead of, like, convincing you to bring me to baseball, like, back then there might have been, you know, 100 other ways we could have connected to show that. Like, hey, I do want to spend time with you, yeah,

Eric MacDougall
and I think for you in that moment, right? Like, finding because, again, like, there's also a part of your inner work where you have to create security for yourself and be like, Okay, I'm feeling really insecure. Like, how do I fill my own cup? How do I take care of that, right? And then ask Eric to add to that, instead of, like, I need Eric to fill this tank up, yes, right? Which gets into more functioning. And so, yeah, I think if you're doing the steamrolling, like, definitely be aware of it, because typically, it can be mitigated by just making a healthy request on your partner say, Yes, nor maybe. Or, you know, essentially just being okay with them disagreeing. You know, that's why I say to a lot of guys in the groups, a lot of human beings, or adults. Like, part of being an adult is learning that you're not always going to get what you want. I've said this many times this podcast. Like, I hate to say you get everything you want. You can always have it. Like, no, that's not true. Get everything you want all the time. You know, you can work towards getting what you want, and you can, you know, essentially, move towards life and find middle ground. Yeah, continue to do that, but you're not always gonna get what you want. You know what I mean? And that's part of being an adult. And I think it's what we're talking about here, where it's like, you know, coming back to that cheeky example of, like, hey, like, I'd love you to make tacos for me. Like, if your partner's like, I'm sorry. Like, I was planning spaghetti tonight, and we don't have Taco meridians. I'm not running the store. You have to accept that, yeah, like, you know, you have to kind of be like, or you have a temperature. I'm like, a six

Kate MacDougall
year old, but that's just not going to help you to connection. And you're certainly going to feel much

Eric MacDougall
more disconnected, and then your partner is going to resent you, yeah, right, and probably withhold love from you, if that's your thing. So just, really, you know, want all to encourage all of you, if you are seeing people do this, or if you're doing it, just recognize it, and then ask yourself, like, what is it that I actually want? What is it that I'm actually seeking in these moments where I need my partner to agree with

Kate MacDougall
and what is the way that I can ask for this in a clear kind way? Because clear is kind Yes,

Eric MacDougall
and that's a respect to you, that's a respect your partner, and that's a respect to your relationship. Yeah.