The Best Catalyst for Change

In this episode, Kate and Eric dive deep into the complexities of anger and how it can be both destructive and transformative in relationships.

Topics:
➡️ Understanding the spectrum of anger in men and women.
➡️ How childhood experiences shape our relationship with anger.
➡️ The importance of using anger as a catalyst for healthy change.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Eric MacDougall
So I really wanted to dive into this topic, not only because of how important and impactful has been in my life, but I'm actually noticing a lot in men and women kind of this really dysfunctional relationship with this. And, you know, to let the cat out of the bag. We're talking about anger today, and our relationship with anger, we're going to dive a bit deeper into what you know, the differences between destructive and in a sense, like constructive anger, which can really compel you to do different things. But the reason this came about, in my mind, as I was thinking about it, is, you know, there was this whole like nice guy thing, like Dr Glover, we have it on the podcast. He, you know, really made this book famous. You know, no more, Mr. Nice Guy. And talked about, like, this paradigm of like men who were in shame, who, you know, were essentially told that, like being angry was bad and they should always be good, and essentially, like trying to break some of that patriarchy during the feminist movement. And again, like, I'm not judging any of that. I'm not saying it's good or bad or whatever. What I'm saying is what that has led to is men who have a really unhealthy relationship with anger, right? Either you have men on the one side, and, you know, you can speak for women, but you know, for me, I see a lot of men where they're on the one side, where they're always like, indestructive anger, like their anger is like, like I was for a long time. It's just rage at the worst. I'm like, putting holes in walls, I'm yelling, I'm throwing things across the rooms, like, I'm just, like, Absolutely not. Okay, right? Very, very destructive. So you have men like that, right, who don't have a healthy relationship with anger, but they're always in anger and rage, etc. And then you have men on the opposite side of the spectrum, where they have such an unhealthy relationship with anger, they think it's such a bad thing that it's like, totally repressed, like they have this deep fear of connecting to it, right? And so what do they they're always like, in that, you know, I'm never going to be angry. I'll just allow things to happen to me. Because if, if I have the choice of, like, being a victim or getting angry, I'm going to choose being a victim, right? Because I'm so scared of, like, what anger means, or what, what people will think about me if they if I become angry, and all this stuff, show anger, yeah, right. And sometimes these men, you know, they try to be that classic nice guy, and then the anger explodes, and then they feel shame, and they go back to nice guy, and that's kind of a cycle. So, you know, I wanted to know first of all, your experience with anger, especially as a woman, right? Because I see a lot of women out there, it's like, be nice, you know. And think a lot of women have a lot of things to be angry about. But also, you know, really entering this conversation of, like, for me, anger has always been a great catalyst for change. Like, typically, when I get angry enough about something, I'm gonna change it, like, I'm gonna do something, yeah? And I think people are disconnected to that, right? And that's why we get into a place where people are just kind of in this melancholic, like, angry at everybody victimized, numb because they're disconnected to their to, like, the power of anger to create change, if that makes sense,

Kate MacDougall
yeah. And I would have to say, like, I think anger for women, I would imagine, is just about the same. I mean, I'm sure there's women out there who are throwing things across this room and but I think the typical anger, you know, I hear about or see in women is like the temper tantrums, the like pushing their husbands or slapping or, you know, getting, like, more physical. I think a lot of women have this idea. That like, you know, if a man was to push me, that would not be okay. But I'm a woman pushing a man like he's so much bigger and stronger than me, it's not going to make much of a difference. But I mean, physical abuse is physical abuse, you know, not, not. One is better than the other. Of course, one might lead less of a mark, but you know, it's, it's still physical abuse when you look at it. So I've heard a lot of women, you know, get angry to the point I think what happens is, most women, they'll repress their anger for a very long time, because, like you said, as a society, we've been told, you know, don't be angry, don't show too much emotion, don't you know, don't be too happy, don't be too sad, don't be too mad. Don't be too anything. So it's just, you know, be like that, like, boom, constant hum in the room kind of thing. So you suppress, and, sorry, repress, repress, repress, repress, repress until you can't anymore, and then it comes out, like full fire, like absolute full fire. And what that looks like is either that getting physically violent, bursting out, getting so angry you're yelling at the top of your lungs, losing your voice, can't even think straight like you're in your animal brain for sure. Yep. And then there's the other extreme, where it's like, complete shutdown, like, isolate, ignore. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to see you. I need to like, disappear from the world for hours on end. So I think the extremes are as extreme for men and women, I think they show up a little bit differently. Typically. I'm not saying that some women don't like throw things across the room, but I do think that they they do show up differently. But for me, personally, like my relationship with anger has always been like, it plays into the patriarchy a lot. You know, men are angry naturally, that's just like men are angry people. Yeah, maybe it's because of the household I grew up in your experience with men. Yeah, my experience with men. And, you know, my my dad didn't have a very relation, a very good relationship with anger. He grew up in a home where anger was very physical and, you know, very inappropriate. So my dad was one of those men who grew up saying, you know, I will never put my hand on my child. I will never raise my hand on my kid. And he didn't. But instead, he showed anger and like, isolation and kind of avoidance, kind of avoidance and like, he disappeared out of our lives, kind of thing, like, not for days on end, but like, he would kind of isolate in the home, and yeah, and we were told, you know, growing up by my mom, like, don't bother him. Give him time. So my relationship with anger is, when somebody is angry, leave them alone. Give them time. Don't help them. Don't

Eric MacDougall
like. They're to be avoided. They

Kate MacDougall
are to be avoided. And, you know, growing up that way, and I'm sure it wasn't my mom's intention, but to me, it was like the idea had made in my head of my dad was that he was this, he used to go down in his workshop, and he was this, like, angry man who was like, literally a ticking time bomb. And if I stepped foot in that workshop like, I would be beheaded like and to this day, I don't know what would have happened, because I never dared do it, you know? And when I look at the anger coming out of my mom, it was very explosive. It was very much like, keep it in, keep it in, keep it in until I can anymore. And then she was like, up. Like, you know those things you see in a cartoon, just like the smoke coming out of the ears, and like all the words were coming out crooked, and like, running after us, chasing up the stairs, like, I'm gonna get you if you don't go in your room. And I'm like, and so, you know, it was just very like, I'm sure, very typical of most childhoods, like, so it's just kind of like my relationship with anger. Now as an adult, I'm very much like,

Eric MacDougall
well, when somebody is angry, they're dangerous. And when, even though nothing has ever happened to me, when somebody was angry, other than in our relationship, there has been times in a relationship where, in our relationship, yeah, like, you have a person in your home who's bigger than you, who's stronger than you, who has the ability and that you've seen in our marriage, like, put holes in doors, yeah, and, like, I can imagine, that's extremely scary.

Kate MacDougall
I think to me, it was just kind of like a, oh, this is what would have happened if I opened the door to the workshop. Okay. It was kind of like that. It like made sense, like, oh, oh, no. Like. Like, and so it didn't make sense to me, like, why is and that was a big thing in our relationship. Was, like, very, so dang pissed off. Why isn't he going to hide? Like, why isn't he locking himself somewhere? Like, why does he want to talk? This is weird. And so in my head, I was just like, go away. Like you're angry. Go away and be alone and come out when you're feeling better. And that's, that was a message I was told to us often growing up. Was like, Hey, if you're gonna be in a crap mood, go away, be alone and come back when you feel better, yeah, like, pretty much like you're a burden, isolate. And so, you know, seeing my dad do it, it was like, well, that's a normal thing to do. So when you came in my life at a period where you, I mean, you weren't always like that, but like when you did get to the period when you when you were very angry and throwing things around, throwing chairs down, lighting things on fire in our front yard, like you
incredibly destroyed. You can be very Yeah, no, I'm angry. Yeah,

Eric MacDougall
I want to say it was that's incredibly unhealthy. And yeah, you know, part of me, even as you're talking like, there's a certain level of, you know, guilt, but also just like, oh man, Eric, like, Yeah, you were fucking nuts. Yeah, you know what I mean, that feels like a different part of me. It is, I did want to ask, you know, as we're kind of talking about this, because you said a lot of things there, and I think a lot of things there, and I think a lot of things are really relevant in terms of, like, how this shaped your relationship with anger? Like, how do you connect to anger? Like, what's that like myself? Yeah, when you think of like, I'm angry, being angry. Like, what happens to you when

Kate MacDougall
you think, when I get angry, I'm like, okay, Kate, you're angry. Isolate. Go, hide yourself. Figure this out, and when you figure it out, come back. So I don't often blow up. I don't often blow up. I don't often talk about my anger. I'll cry. Sometimes I'll get so angry I'll cry. But my biggest instinct is, when I'm feeling angry, hide, repress it, you know, pretend it's not there, and then move on with life. Because to me, anger is dangerous. Anger is scary, and I would not want to put my kids through that. I wouldn't want to put you through that. So I guess I have this big fear of losing control if I did get angry. Because to my in my head, I'm like, well, when people are angry, this is what happens. So I'm just gonna, like, not let myself get to that point. So whatever I'm angry about, like, get over it and repress it, pretend it's not there, and move on with life. And you know, when we have arguments, we can see that, right? Like, for me, like, now, now that we're both healthy and you're no longer having your major temper tantrums when you get angry, you know you need to take care of yourself. You'll talk it out, talk it out, talk it out. And we'll get to a point where you need to isolate, where you need to, like, Okay, I'm going to take a time out here, because I'm about to say things I'm gonna regret, or I'm about to do things I'm gonna regret, and I need to, like, not be in this presence anymore. I need to go, like, regulate and take care of these negative emotions that, per se, yeah, this

Eric MacDougall
experience that I'm having that could be destructive, yeah,

Kate MacDougall
sure. And, and it takes you some time to come out of it. Like, it'll take you sometimes a couple of days to, like, really feel through that anger and move past it in a way that you feel like, okay, like, I'm able to, like, come out of this. So this is, for me, it takes a couple minutes. Yeah, so

Eric MacDougall
this is something because I think you're hitting on something that's really, really important to think about, and that's what I mean like in moments when, because I think we're talking about two very different experiences, and I think a lot of people could relate to each of our experiences. So as you're talking like and you tell me if I'm wrong, but you know I'm hearing you like something happens, something happens in your life, and you think it's unfair, unjust, you're being taken advantage of, like, whatever, right, whatever situation that, like, is leading to anger within you, right? You're like, this is not fair. This is not okay. This is happening. And it sounds like in that moment, you're like, yeah, it is not fair. But you know, like, you don't want to get angry here, so just like, let it go. Yeah, right. And so in that moment, that's kind of what I meant, is like one side of the spectrum is, like, you're essentially saying, Okay, I'm experiencing this thing in my body. My body's telling me, like, something's up here. You shouldn't be okay. And then you're essentially your brain is telling your body, oh, body, don't worry about it. Yeah. We want to be accepted here. We don't want to cause a stir, so like, just ignore your body. Yeah. It's like a betrayal of self, in a sense, right? Yeah?

Kate MacDougall
Because I've never been able to feel through that emotion, and oftentimes what happens is, then I stop myself from talking about the things that are truly on my mind and the things that are truly bothering me. So because of my reaction of anger, what I've noticed is I often don't express things that I've that you've done that. Hurt me. I often don't express things that I need, things that I need to be done differently. I don't express these things because as soon as I feel anger, I'm like, get over it, Kate. And then I'm like, over it. I'm like, oh, everything's fine again. And all of a sudden, like, everything's rainbow and butterflies. And I'm like, Oh yeah, Eric just did something that really pissed me off, but that no longer exists because I repress it so hard that I'm like, I forget that Eric even did that. And so, you know, it has led to a relationship where I don't express my needs, I don't express my desires, I don't express when I'm angry. I don't even tell you when you've done something that has crossed me, yeah. And so you're like, begging for that kind of relationship. You're like, if I did something, let me know. And so, because I repress it so much, sometimes I get these like, bitter moments where I'll just be like, weirdly snappy and like, and I it's repressed so hard that I'm not I don't even realize that I'm being snappy, and you're like, Kate, like, you're either snappy or you're like, super isolating what is going on, and it's like shit. I've been repressing these feelings for so long that I haven't even noticed that I'm, like, deeply, deeply angry at it, or Eric right now, and if I had only spoken to him about it, like, in that moment, I probably wouldn't be angry about it. And so that's been, that's been a lot of my work is like, when I feel something come up, don't repress it. Go talk to Eric right away. And I know for me, I have to do it right away. Yeah, like, if I don't do it right away, I will easily repress it, and then it'll be done. But like, so when I feel something, and it happened the other day, like you said something, it kind of crossed me. I was like, hmm, didn't like that. And I was like, Kate, go tell him. Right now. Like, right now. Go tell him. So I went up to you, and I was like, hey, when you said that, it really didn't feel good. And you're like, Wow, that was not at all my intention. That's not what I meant. Here's what I meant. I'm so sorry it came across that way, but this is what I meant. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden, I was like, what's the weird feeling? Like I actually feel this weird sense of relief I don't usually get when I repress things. So I was like, Huh? Well, I mean, I have to talk about things more often. So now I'm noticing, the more I talk about it, the more I have this, like, weird feeling I've never felt before, of like, almost like, this emptiness, of like, Huh? When I talk about something, I feel this weird, like feeling of emptiness. I don't feel like I have to repress, or I don't have to be mad,

Eric MacDougall
yeah, and I think, you know, that's so important, because in this case, right? You're, we're essentially getting to the point of the entire episode, which is, you're using that anger as a catalyst to do something exactly. Something exactly right, like, where, okay, like, I would keep this in but actually now I'm going to connect to this anger and say I'm not keeping

Kate MacDougall
it anymore. Exactly by having a healthier relationship with anger, I have been able to now express myself and be like, No, I will no longer accept this in my life. Of course, yeah, and you know, we've, we've talked to many therapists before who have said, you know, Kate, when things get heated, you need to walk away, because Eric will talk forever, and he will get heated and more heated. And the more you stand there, the more he gets heated. So like, when you get to a point in your conversations where you feel it's getting heated, stick to the boundary and leave the conversation in a very like, you know, respectful kind way. Promise to come back, but, like, take a break. Yeah? And I didn't do that for a long time because I'm just like, I'm so angry right now, but then I would repress and then shut down, and then it just made the things worse. Yeah, yeah. And then so. But what I've noticed now is, you know, if I do walk away, if I do uphold that boundary, not only does it feel good for me because I'm doing something for myself, but it's really allowing me to be like, Hey, I'm angry right now, and it's not okay, the way Eric's talking to me, and it's not okay, the things that are happening right now. So no, I'm not going to accept this. And by walking away, it creates a more healthy, secure relationship for us. By not walking away, it's creating a toxic environment, and it's creating safety, exactly. And I want

Eric MacDougall
to talk about, you know, what you mentioned in terms of, like, for me, like, it'll take me, you know, a day or two to kind of regulate myself and kind of come back to center. And, you know, a lot of people might think that, like, oh, yeah, that's good, that you do that, no, that's also unhealthy, right? Because, and I really relate to a lot of what your dad was experiencing because, and this is, like, I think a lot of men have this idea, but like, when I'm isolating myself, there's a couple of things that are happening now, first of all, the surface level, like the justification that I have to do that is that I'm protecting others, okay, so that's kind of like the first level of justification. So in that moment, I'm like, well. You know, like, I want to protect Kate and I want to be angry with her. I want to protect the kids. You know, I'm sure your dad was like, I don't want my anger to spread to the kids. I don't want to be like my dad, who, yeah, I don't want to get to a point where I'm going to put my hand so I'm going to remove myself to protect the kids. That's like, first level. If you go a bit deeper, there's another level, which, you know, essentially, in that moment, is like, again, protecting you, which is, like, I want to talk about this, but Kate is not able to receive it, and therefore I'm not going to talk about it, because, like, I don't want to make her uncomfortable. I don't want to tell her that what she did piss me off, because that could lead to a disconnection cycle, etc. That's like, the second level underneath. But there's a deeper level, and this is where you need to really get self aware, right? And I've done a lot of work where what's actually happening at the core is my belief that when I'm angry and I come at it from a place of anger, that I will like that people will ostracize me, leave me, not love me, etc. And that's the core. And as much as I could blame you and say, like, Well, okay, it's just not able to receive it. So I'm going to be the white knight who protects her. I'm protecting the kid. At the core, you know, protecting my kids. And the core of all of it is when I'm angry, I don't love myself. Therefore, how could anyone love me? Yeah, so when I'm angry, I will hide. And it's exactly what you were talking about in the beginning when you talked about, you know, your parents usually said, which a lot of parents are like this. Sometimes, we even do it with our son sometimes, and we catch sometimes we catch ourselves, right, but it's like, Hey, you're angry, go away. And so you're angry, you're not valid. When you're angry, you should be, you know, isolated, ostracized from the pack. And so what did kids learn? I better not be angry, or I'm gonna lose closeness. So I'm gonna learn to hide this anger, repress it, do whatever, in order to be accepted and big picture, this has led to a society where we have a really messed up relationship with anger. We're all fucking blowing up and it's super destructive, or we're disconnected to it, and therefore don't have healthy boundaries. Are being walked over by everybody. Are staying in relationships that are continuing to cause us pain or putting up with shit when it comes to like, love, our jobs, the way we're being treated. And I think what we really want people to understand is that anger is not a bad thing. No,

Kate MacDougall
right, yes, we need destruction. Yeah, exactly your reaction can be the bad thing, yeah, but that feeling of anger is usually a red light that something needs to change when you get angry, take it as like a sign that the moment you are in right now is no longer feeling safe or good for your body, and you need to change that situation. So whether it's a permanent change or a, you know, circumstance change, I just need to speak up. I need to walk out. I need to walk away, listen to that and do it in a calm way. Because what's not healthy is your reaction in anger. But if you can react in a calm way and just say, hey, something is coming up for me right now, and I need to talk about it, or I need to mention it, or I need to do something about it, then that is a gift to you, as a gift to your relationship. And by connecting to your anger, and by allowing yourself to be angry, you're realizing I'm worthy. I'm worthy of this feeling. It's okay for me to feel this way. It's okay for me to have this feeling, but now I'm going to do something about it. Yeah, and you know, what you do next will have a huge impact on your relationships?

Eric MacDougall
Yeah, I think so. And so our challenge for you, listener, you know, is to really try to understand growing up, what was your relationship with anger? How was anger showed to you? What was the things you were told about anger?

Kate MacDougall
How are you currently? Yeah, and

Eric MacDougall
then now today, right? What's happening today? You know, do you have a healthy relationship with your anger? Do you allow yourself to be angry sometimes? Do you think it's a really bad thing when you're angry? Are you repressing it, or are you any other end of the scale where it's destructive and you're just like, essentially, like, ready to blow up all the time, right? Again, I can relate to that. I was like that, right? Like, constant irritation to rage that was, like, my my area that I hung out in. And so we really want to invite you to think about your relationship with anger and think about, Hey, how can I actually allow myself to experience some of this anger in a healthy way and use it as a catalyst for healthy change, not for destructive change, not for going out there and blaming everybody and telling everybody they're wrong, but instead saying, Hey, I'm going to stand up for my rights, I'm going to stand up for what I want, I'm going to go after what I want in life, because what I'm currently experiencing is something that makes me angry.